"less lethal" as part of your daily carry?

[dbrowne1]

..........

[JohnN]

I don't know how less lethal a blackjack is but that's what I choose to carry as a supplemental tool. I witnessed several "disruptive individuals" being sprayed down fairly liberally with OC that didn't seem overly impressed. Only had one occasion to use the blackjack and it seemed to work efficiently enough. Small sample I know but so far so good.

[ST911]

I've sprayed a lot of people over the years. Some with great effect, some with none. The key is to deploy the spray (effectively), and then move decisively to engage or escape.

OC is a tool in the toolbox. It must be combined with situational awareness, conflict avoidance, good deployment tactics, and a contingency plan for when it doesn't work.

I also believe that people carrying OC should have exposure to it. It's highly likely they will have either a direct or secondary contact with the OC themselves in or immediately following the deployment. Exposure training preconditions desirable responses and reduces the potential incapacitation from that contamination.

Dbrowne makes a good point:

OC is not a bad idea, I've just come to believe that its not as useful as some people seem to think.

Or at least, has a lot more caveats to its usefulness than most realize.

[oldtexan]

my mantra has always been that if you CCW, you MUST also carry some form of LL. I've been called out on that numerous times and I have tempered that with you "should" always carry LL but I still remain wedded to the concept.

the old saw about "if all you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail", seems relevant and I really don't want to have to go to guns if all I'm facing is some loud mouth who thinks he deserves that parking spot more than me.

the problem is, if you CCW and you are forced to go hands-on, that immediately changes the dynamic from a potentially non-lethal situation into a lethal one where weapon discovery and retention determine the outcome. to me, LL is some form of chem spray. other LL, like yawara sticks, require you to already be hands-on and I consider that my hastily executed Oh Crap Plan B...

my reasoning is not having to do with escalation of force continuum or whatever the cool guys call it these days but more from a culpability standpoint. the papers are full these days of stories where almost anything might have been better than to poke a few holes in "my baby din' do nuffin", and have to deal with the legal/financial nightmare that follows.

I'm not advocating carrying LL instead of (though there are some times when tis is better than nothing) but rather in addition to CCW because I think it gives you options. I carry mine on my support side and prectice holster-ready with my CCW at the same time I present the LL.

I agree with the need to be able to employ a less lethal means, particularly if I'm carrying a lethal means of defense. I carry a Def Tech MK-VI Stream unit. I'm 56 years old and would seriously prefer not to have to go "hands on" with anyone. I see the OC spray as a tool to use in specific situations. An example is if an unknown attempts to engage me in conversation in a parking lot. I maneuver and verbalize to prevent that unknown from getting too close. If verbalization and maneuver fail, but I see no weapon, then the OC seems like a good choice assuming the unknown won't be on top of me before I can deploy it. I have a Def Tech training unit, and have practiced with that, but I need to get some FoF training with the OC.

I seem to remember hearing a wise man refer to OC as an eyepoke in a can.

My wife carries an ASP Key Defender. She also is a concealed handgun licensee, but works on a university campus, and so can't legally carry a handgun much of the time. She's practiced spraying the Key Defender Inert unit, but has done no FoF with it.

[tgace]

I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I always tell people considering OC carry that situational awareness and accessibility are probably even more of an issue than it can be with a handgun. At least most CW carriers have their weapon on their hip where they can access it quickly.

I see many people who carry the can buried in a pocket, bag or purse. Getting to it when the SHTF and being able to deploy it without spraying yourself in the face becomes an impossibility in those scenarios. Likewise some people seem suprised that OC isn't a "one shot stop" or an incapacitator like a Taser.

And while I don't suggest everybody expose themselves to an OC hit, being aware of what you are in for in the event you have to roll with someone you have sprayed is a plus.

[167]

I think that OC use in the civilian role and OC use on the LE/Security role are two very different things. In the LE/Security role OC is used to gain compliance so an arrest can be made, in the civilian role OC is an E&E tool. All it is intended to do is buy you enough time to get away and call the police to file a report. I think it does that quite well. I could spray someone in the face with water and it would get me a few seconds.

The accessability problem is solved easy enough, just carry it in your hand when moving through possible trouble areas. It is easy to carry a can of OC in your hand in a pre-emptive fashion and no one even notice what it is or even that it is there. I can't really do that with a handgun.

[jklaughrey]

While on duty of course a viable and oft used LL in the use of force continuum. However, off duty or for CW civvies. It has the problem of being deployed effectively IMO. I don't carry it, if a situation arises I in off duty capacity will placate the antagonist as much as possible. No need to argue with a moron. If however it has the unfortunate circumstance to become violent, well I carry a firearm, it becomes a lethal use of force issue if the attacker attempts a gun grab. I figure option A is placate and make an offensive/defensive retreat or B, and deal with situation as lethal and dispatch the attacker. If the problem doesn't warrant a lethal response then you should be able to put your bravado in check and back away. I see too many "rookies" get in pissing matches off duty because they have a gun. Pride and stupidity will always make you the loser.

Once violence enters as the only option, you have already lost the fight!

[spartan09]

From a legality standpoint, as a civilian, I do not think you gain any degree of legal protection if circumstances escalate from a LL situation to a deadly force situation, because you exercised a LL option. Please note I am using the generic "you" and not directing this against anyone. Every state is different on its self-defense laws. Some states have castle doctrines differing statutory and caselaw based conceptions of the duty to retreat. If you accept that your right to self-defense (both at all and using x degree of force) is generally based on the reasonableness of your response to the perceived threat, I do not think that a failure to use OC spray matters. Either you were attacked, feared for your life, and defended yourself because you had to, or you were not forced to defend your life and should have moved on. Your election to use non-lethal force might demonstrate your unwillingness to use deadly force, but does it also demonstrate your subjective belief that you were not in a life-or-death situation?

I also agree that civilian use of OC spray is probably not going to be followed by an attempt to gain compliance or to restrain an attacker or offender. At the same time, our friend the skunk shows us that even dumb animals will go away if they get a face full of an unpleasant spray. A plan to use OC spray probably needs to be followed by a plan to flee and and also accompanied by a plan to deal with an enraged and non-incapacitated attacker.

[BLACK LION]

As I'm sure is the case for most M4c posters, it's rare for me to not CCW daily. However, I'm inconsistent with less lethal (e.g. OC, etc) and had a situation where the less lethal option would have been perhaps the right option for that situation.

It was clearly not a lethal threat, but I had no interest in going hands on, and was lucky I didn't have to. It did remind me however that I wished I had an option between them at the time.

It's always a balancing act between what you wearing, and what you are willing to carry around. On the far end, you end up with a Batman belt that looks like a duty belt.

What % of you have some less lethal option as part of your daily CCW and what are your feelings on less lethal options in general?

My body weapons are always a less lethal option but in reference to non organic tools/options:
Flashlight crennelated on both ends , Thick sharpie for a kubotan, a metal mechanical pencil or pen and a "small fry" 2.5mil volt stunner(size of a cell phone).
My daily carry knife has an outstanding less lethal app on the but of the grip and another more hammer like app fused with the finger guard.
I am of the midset that anything available to me in my surroundings is a labor saving option but that does not mean I shouldnt carry what I can in order to provide more specific options.
I cannot carry a loaded/concealed firearm on my person at all times and even if I could I would still have less lethal provisions.

[Rattlehead]

Prefer to carry a TP-09 Prospec Design pen. Not too big to protrude through everyday clothes, and not to small to where I couldn't reach it in a hurry. Have yet to get my CCW, so this has sufficed so far.