"less lethal" as part of your daily carry?

[NavyDavy55]

I carry a 3" folding spring assisted knife.

Also carry the ASP Key Defender OC. And I am certified with OC spray.

[AMC29]

I use an ASP Palm Defender OC spray as part of my off duty/EDC.

I like the fact that it only looks like a mini Kubotan and not like an OC spray. Most people have no clue what is.

ASP makes three sizes as well. The Palm defender is the smallest at only 4.5" long.

[gigag04]

The use of force continuum for LE will look something like this:

Officer presence
Verbal direction
Soft empty hand control
Hard empty hand control
Intermediate weapon (in order, oc, tazer, baton + k-9)
Deadly force

That said, non LE operate under a slightly different set of rules but will ultimately judged under a standard of reasonableness in the eyes of the law of your state. LE personnel are trained in the lower uses of force, and are thus expected to use them (if reasonable) to effect a lawful arrest of violators. I do not expect my 100lb fiancé to demonstrate a straight arm bar takedown before using her OC, simply because she saw it done once.

Defensive measures in a non-LE situation are exactly that - defensive, to stop the unlawful use of force by another against you or a 3rd party. If your use of OC has that effect, you should be fine IMO.

[Pelican82]

Read a story on one of the gun forums about a guy and his wife who got into a minor altercation with someone in a Lowe's parking lot. As the couple was attempting to leave the guy ran up to their truck and grabbed the gentleman's wife by the arm. The gentleman responded by spraying some Foxlabs in the guy's face.

Seemed like a reasonable and likely scenario where OC was the proper response, and since I read that story I carry spray with me now.

The wife thinks I am a freak because I give it as a Christmas present. She says that Christmas presents should be about happiness or some such nonsense.

[Doru]

Glad to see so many mentioning the ASP Defender.

I've carried one for years, and eventually bought one for my son and wife (who don't EDC lethal).

I think it's a great product, and I make sure to buy the inert (Cool) inserts when I change out the Heat, which I try to do annually. That way we can train (presentation, deployment, etc...) with the old insert, use a cool one, and then insert the new one.

Drew

[wesprt]

As I'm sure is the case for most M4c posters, it's rare for me to not CCW daily. However, I'm inconsistent with less lethal (e.g. OC, etc) and had a situation where the less lethal option would have been perhaps the right option for that situation.

It was clearly not a lethal threat, but I had no interest in going hands on, and was lucky I didn't have to. It did remind me however that I wished I had an option between them at the time.

It's always a balancing act between what you wearing, and what you are willing to carry around. On the far end, you end up with a Batman belt that looks like a duty belt.

What % of you have some less lethal option as part of your daily CCW and what are your feelings on less lethal options in general?

I personally think that having a less lethal option is almost as neccesary as a lethal one. In addition to my Glock I almost always carry my Foster Brothers blackjack. 11 ounces of lead on the end of a coil spring plaited in leather.

The way I think of it is that I am more likely to run into an encounter that does NOT warrant deadly force than I am one that does. Good example is the classic drunken asshole- If my MUC skills aren't up to the task and leaving isn't an option I'm going to have to go hands on. I can't shoot someone who is about to throw a haymaker my way. Mabye if I was a woman or midget I could articulate the need but being 6'4 240 that excuse doesn't fly so well.

Do I have the skills to go hands on and win? Most likely. But one upping is always preferable. So instead of getting into a fistfight I tune him up with a blackjack, mabye he ends up with a broken collarbone or hand. Beats me busting my hands up and catching some kind of nasty funk from the cuts left by his teeth on my knuckles (been there). Better chance of winning and less effort on my part while still justifiable.

I also see some have mentioned OC, based on my personal experiences being OC'ed (and seeing dozens of others get the same treatment) I have absolutely zero faith in it as a deterrent. It certainly beats harsh language but... Mabye it works well for some of you but it's not for me.

[DacoRoman]

Aren't blackjacks illegal in many states? Also would any jurisdictions consider the blackjack a deadly blunt force weapon?

[wesprt]

Aren't blackjacks illegal in many states? Also would any jurisdictions consider the blackjack a deadly blunt force weapon?

Like anything else they are legal in some states and not in others. I know for a fact they are legal in FL because the concealed carry license specifically mentions "billies" as something you can carry with your CCW. Check your state law's weapons section- Anything can be called a deadly weapon if used as such, that's why I limit my use to body and appendage shots. Head shots with a 'jack with any ass behind them will result in coloring books for Christmas time or death. One of the hardest things to do when carrying a jack is to have the self discipline to not smoke someone in the grape with it unless you don't mind killing them.

[Stonebridge]

I have Sabre Red OC; it's powerful and accurate and I like the button design because it's pretty tough to hose myself.

Problem is, I don't carry it regularly about half the year because it's too warm for a coat and if I put anymore junk on my belt I'm going to have to start wearing a cape.

Same with the flex-baton; I have one but I rarely carry it.

I suppose kneecapping and pistol-whipping aren't considered 'less-lethal' right?

I would like to see a court case where an armed civilian intentionally shot an unarmed attacker in a non-vital area and argued that it wasn't lethal force. I've always wondered how that would turn out.

-'b

[Jake'sDad]

Like anything else they are legal in some states and not in others. I know for a fact they are legal in FL because the concealed carry license specifically mentions "billies" as something you can carry with your CCW. Check your state law's weapons section- Anything can be called a deadly weapon if used as such, that's why I limit my use to body and appendage shots. Head shots with a 'jack with any ass behind them will result in coloring books for Christmas time or death. One of the hardest things to do when carrying a jack is to have the self discipline to not smoke someone in the grape with it unless you don't mind killing them.

Exactly. We had them taken away from us at my old agency, because one of our guys went full auto on a guy that probably only needed a shot or two, and sent him back him to nursery school.

And yes, they are a felony to even possess in some states.