"less lethal" as part of your daily carry?

[Stonebridge]

Can I ask you guys (because I really don't have an answer) what you'd do after you used your less lethal alternative? I mean, you've just sprayed a guy with OC or tasered somebody... now what? Do you prepare to draw your weapon in case it didn't get the desired result? Do you retreat? Do you call the cops? Just wondering.

Thanks,

-'b

[wesprt]

Can I ask you guys (because I really don't have an answer) what you'd do after you used your less lethal alternative? I mean, you've just sprayed a guy with OC or tasered somebody... now what? Do you prepare to draw your weapon in case it didn't get the desired result? Do you retreat? Do you call the cops? Just wondering.

Thanks,

-'b

The "book answer" is to unass yourself from the scene if possible, commit as much as you can to memory call the cops and give them a detailed description of what happened.

Assuming whatever you do doesn't work and you can't leave, what happens from there is largely dependent on how good of a storyteller you are. In some situations you'd be justified in using deadly force if you have exhausted your other options and are "in fear of your life". But as a general rule "well I sprayed him with OC and that didn't do nothing so I pulled a gun on him" will get you sent to jail unless you are a cop.

However "This madman attacked me out of nowhere and I was forced to defend myself by OC'ing him, and then I was in fear of my life when he tried to choke me so I had to shoot him" will probably work more in your favor. In the end it comes down to you are justified in meeting non deadly force with non deadly force and deadly with deadly so unless you can articulate that you were in fear of your life, your pistol should stay in its holster.

[bkb0000]

again, i preface my post by stating i have very little less-lethal weapon training-

so long as you train to competency with whatever method, system, and/or tools you plan to use in a "real life" situation, the escalation of force will hopefully come natural to you. i cant think of too many situations where an armed attacker should be met with non-lethal force... can anybody else? if somebody is coming at you with a knife, OC is not appropriate, and i dont care how well you think you can get him. billy club? ASP? from a self-preservation standpoint: the level of force displayed to, or used on, you should be met with overwhelming force. that is to say, that level of force necessary to quickly and efficiently defend yourself. to me, this means if i'm faced with OC, i need to respond with something "above" OC on the deadly-scale. i think if somebody possesses a weapon capable of incapacitating me, i'm perfectly justified in using deadly force, as being incapacitated puts me in a state where even hands alone can easily inflict upon me serious bodily injury or death. the simple fact that i carry a gun makes this doubly so.

this also lends, in my mind, a bit more evidence to my previous assertion that less-lethal is generally not a good idea for non-LEO civilians- it just further mucks the already cloudy mental waters of thought. what do i do? which weapon do i grab? OC? ASP? gun?

i'd rather simplify the question to "is my life in danger?" yes or no. shoot or don't shoot.

[BrianS]

this also lends, in my mind, a bit more evidence to my previous assertion that less-lethal is generally not a good idea for non-LEO civilians- it just further mucks the already cloudy mental waters of thought. what do i do? which weapon do i grab? OC? ASP? gun?

I think pepper spray is a great idea. If somebody or something is trying to kill me I can just go straight to deadly force. Don't see it mucking up anything in the thought process, there are things that are threats that aren't legal to shoot. Pepper spray is great for loose dogs when I am walking mine for instance. I hear it also does wonders for belligerent drunks engaging in preassaultive behavior.

I think I would be famous world wide if I had shot every dog that has attacked my dogs while they were on leashes, or would have been arrested in the first incident, either/or.

[Jake'sDad]

I think pepper spray is a great idea. If somebody or something is trying to kill me I can just go straight to deadly force. Don't see it mucking up anything in the thought process, there are things that are threats that aren't legal to shoot. Pepper spray is great for loose dogs when I am walking mine for instance. I hear it also does wonders for belligerent drunks engaging in preassaultive behavior.

I think I would be famous world wide if I had shot every dog that has attacked my dogs while they were on leashes, or would have been arrested in the first incident, either/or.

You nailed it.

[ER_STL]

Great topic and some good posts in it.

IMHO, Kelly McCann gives a great, no-nonsense approach to the continuum. He puts OC in front of hand-to-hand, followed lastly by lethal force if needed. I think this is a logical approach for most CCWers who simply won't put in the time necessary to become proficient in hand-to-hand defense. Despite all the talk about "going hands on", it's not as easy as most people think it is to try and control the more violent and aggressive felons out there. They have had nothing better to do over the last 10 years but fight and workout in prison. They have been using violence most of their lives to get what they want and they're used to having it used on them as well. Going hand-to-hand with someone like that only makes sense if another option is unavailable or you're so skilled in acting violence on another person that you can beat him cleanly. Most people aren't the latter...

Geoff Thompson has said it best (IMHO) when he succinctly summed up his 17+ books on (unarmed) self-defense in one sentence: "Learn to hit foookin' hard". Despite having an extensive background in judo and other martial arts - and having probably been in more violent altercations than have been lied about on the various message boards this month - he readily admits that a very hard, pre-emptive punch to the chin was the only unarmed tactic that consistently worked against the bad guys. His perspective in general on the subject is fantastic.

For the rest of us, it makes much more sense to tilt the odds in your favor with a weapon. OC is much easier to use than some sort of a contact weapon and it's truly a non-lethal option (as opposed to some sort of club). Like anything else though, it needs to be trained. Getting used to being exposed to it is great advice, as is understanding its effectiveness *and* limitations. Also, using it in conjunction with defensive or offensive movement is also a good idea (i.e. spray and run or spray and follow with a punch). I'm in the process of trying to take my own advice and get better at using it.

[drrufo]

On my key chain is a brass fob about 3" long by 3/4" wide. It is about 1/4 " thick, it is on a large ring that allows me to put my fingers in it and carry the tag like a kutoban. It is engraved with my union and the phrase "Bloody Thursday 1983". That date means something to me and my union.
The point of this ramble is no one will give the brass key fob a second thought until it hits them in the ribs or temple.
It has gone thru airport searches and has been on several cruises without any quibble.
I also have a folding knife in the cup holder in my car, and of course there is my car.
None of these items are illegal in Kalifornia, but I feel a little better protected without carrying OC or my Glocks and the attendant problems they can cause if used.

[Jake'sDad]

Geoff Thompson has said it best (IMHO) when he succinctly summed up his 17+ books on (unarmed) self-defense in one sentence: "Learn to hit foookin' hard". Despite having an extensive background in judo and other martial arts - and having probably been in more violent altercations than have been lied about on the various message boards this month - he readily admits that a very hard, pre-emptive punch to the chin was the only unarmed tactic that consistently worked against the bad guys. His perspective in general on the subject is fantastic.

Lol. Good advice from someone who obviously knows what they're talking about.

Immediately made me think of my first field training officer, a 45 year old former marine. At a family fight, the huge husband started a struggle with me, and as Jimmy Dean said, "a crashin' blow from a huge right hand" delivered by my FTO, ended the fight before it started, with teeth and blood all over the place, and an all but unconscious subject. He looked at me and said, "there, forget that arm twistin' shit they taught you in the academy, that's how you deal with an asshole who wants to fight". I wondered why he wore gloves, even on day watch......

I took his advice, and it served me well, back in the days when loosing your teeth and/or a concussion was a more socially accepted outcome of trying to fight with a cop. Most of the time, they were just so surprised that you punched them, you could hook em up before they figured out what happened. Kept me from getting hurt/killed by guys that could have easily beaten the shit out of me.

[Iraq Ninja]

Food for thought...

A firearm can easily be used in a less lethal mode, while sprays and other such things are difficult to use in a lethal mode.

Lethality should always be an option. I don't want to carry around a "Batman Belt" full of options.

Sprays are less of a deterrent than guns, when you point them at somebody. Nobody fears for their life when you point to can of spray at them.

[Jake'sDad]

Food for thought...

A firearm can easily be used in a less lethal mode, while sprays and other such things are difficult to use in a lethal mode.

Lethality should always be an option. I don't want to carry around a "Batman Belt" full of options.

Sprays are less of a deterrent than guns, when you point them at somebody. Nobody fears for their life when you point to can of spray at them.

Using it as a club, or even pointing your firearm at someone, is using lethal force legally.

And not everyone will fear for their life when you point a gun at them. A much higher percentage of them won't, then most would ever guess.

If you have good justification to use lethal force, it's a moot point. A less lethal alternative is for those gray situations.... like when two guys are threatening to stomp the crap out of you, and you're armed and scared they might take your gun. If you shoot two unarmed individuals, you will likely have some problems. Pepper spray them and be forced to shoot them when they continue their attack, and you'll reduce those problems.

Hey, I don't always have a less lethal alternative on me when I'm carrying, (my hands aren't quite the alternative they were when I was 30.) But the concept and reasons behind carrying less lethal are certainly valid.