The grip angle...does it really matter?

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

I humbly disagree. I am also a USPSA shooter (B prod), and I find that grip angle is a very important thing to get used to when transitioning between pistol platforms. I do not track the front sight during presentation until the end of my draw, instead I rely on my index, which is probably why I find a difference between the 1911/2011 and glock angle to be so great. My draw is ok, usually 1.1 - 1.3 for an A zone hit on a 7m IPSC target, but it is not terrible.

I have no doubt that anyone, including myself, could adapt to a certain grip angle given enough practice, but seemless transition between pistols of significantly different grip angles but similar manual of arms and trigger action is not something that I have seen in my personal experience. I do track my sights when firing, and in recoil I feel that my body index helps me return my sights to the same point consistently. I shoot Glocks almost exclusively so I am used to the higher grip angle, if I pick up a 1911 I find that even though my eyes track the sights in recoil, but my index still drives the sights so that they dip a little more than they need to because my grip and stance are used to handling recoil a certain way. Its nothing that training would not fix, but is still a noteworthy observation.

BTW, I participated in a 3 day bullseye shooting seminar / competition with the USMC Pistol team when I was in college and I believe that they would disagree with the premise that there is no NPA with pistols.

I believe muscle memory and index are very strong factors in shooting performance. During my daily dry fire practice I like to do several presentations with my eyes closed (after verifying that the background is clear, gun unloaded, etc.), at the end of my draw I will open my eyes to make sure my sights are aligned, which serves to make sure that my grip and index is consistent. Grip angle is just one of the major factors behind my reasoning that people should pick one platform and shoot it. I have found that I perform the best and improve the most if I pick just one gun and shoot it exclusively.

GU

[YVK]

GU, I honestly don't see much of disagreement between your post and Robb's.
I don't think there is argument that grip angle plays role when transitioning between platforms,hence Robb's analogy about adjustments between F250 and Corolla.
I also think there is no argument that grip angle of any pistols shouldn't prevent anybody from learning to shoot that particular platform well.
Seems like everybody is saying the same to me.

[Robb Jensen]

I'm a B class shooter in Production 73.48%, B in Limited 67.53% and C in Open 54.03% (I got this with the M&P Pro shooting Open Minor PF until the Pro was Production legal). IDPA SSP Expert and GSSF Master.

I find that natural index applies much more to Open guns where the shooter isn't going to see the dot until more than 1/2 way to full extension.

NPA can apply to pistols as in Bullseye = slow shooting one handed. Which is essentially just like Hi-Power rifle = slow shooting.
USPSA and Bullseye are only similar because they use handguns. Example: The excellent Bullseye shooter Gunny Zins USMCR only made it to C class in USPSA if I recall correctly.

If you're were tracking the front sight early in the draw you would find that switching from a 1911 to a Glock isn't hard at all. I never find that drawing the gun is any different but I do have to practice reloads when switching guns due to the radical difference in the shape of the mags and magwells.

[comprido]

I would make the distinction between a NPA and and index, both of which certainly exist in USPSA shooting. The index is what can be trained, and the NPA less so.

If you don't think you have a NPA and or that it matters, try this example. First, line up for a vice prez facing 30 degrees to the left of the T1. Shoot another string lined up facing T2. It matters.

I think when folks say "XYZ gun doesn't point well (for me)" they are usually referring to an index. If you've been shooting 1911's all your life, your index with a Glock will be higher until you train yourself otherwise. Reverse the guns and the opposite would be true. Picking up the front sight sooner is great, but you are still going to fight against the index you've been instilling all your life.

FYI regarding grip angle: Bob Vogel (not a B class shooter) writes he switched from 1911/2011 pistols to Glocks because he likes the grip angle. It had nothing to do with how the Glock points, but rather that the grip angle lets him get his support hand higher and handle recoil better.

[Robb Jensen]

True an index is just a training scar. I grew up shooting 1911s until I turned 17 and bought a Glock 17. I can shoot both equally as well as the other.

I too get very high on the Glocks grip with my support hand.



I do however get a bunch higher on my M&P Pro 9mm.

[Supermoto]

I think natural point of aim is very important with pistols. The sights should be lined up without correction during the draw. This is done with the correct index and natural point of aim. Any corrections made during the draw wastes time

A good natural point of aim will bring the sights back on target quicker without need for adjustment

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

Example: The excellent Bullseye shooter Gunny Zins USMCR only made it to C class in USPSA if I recall correctly.

If you're were tracking the front sight early in the draw you would find that switching from a 1911 to a Glock isn't hard at all. I never find that drawing the gun is any different but I do have to practice reloads when switching guns due to the radical difference in the shape of the mags and magwells.

Robb,

After shooting my first LPR nationals and watching the super squad I've been messing with my draw / presentation quite a bit these past few months. I have concluded that you are indeed correct, if you press out vs. bowl (rely on index), breaking the shot at full extension regardless of grip angle is much easier and more consistent. I do find that I drive the front sight down a little more during recoil than is necessary with a M&P & 1911 than with a glock, but thats just a practice point.

Funny you mentioned Gunny Zins, he was the lead instructor during my bullseye shooting seminar that I attended in college at Quantico. I never would have guessed that he only made it to C because he was an extremely impressive bullseye shooter.


GU

[Robb Jensen]

Robb,

After shooting my first LPR nationals and watching the super squad I've been messing with my draw / presentation quite a bit these past few months. I have concluded that you are indeed correct, if you press out vs. bowl (rely on index), breaking the shot at full extension regardless of grip angle is much easier and more consistent. I do find that I drive the front sight down a little more during recoil than is necessary with a M&P & 1911 than with a glock, but thats just a practice point.

Funny you mentioned Gunny Zins, he was the lead instructor during my bullseye shooting seminar that I attended in college at Quantico. I never would have guessed that he only made it to C because he was an extremely impressive bullseye shooter.


GU

If you're driving the front down you may want to check your grip pressure. When I have shot much in a while sometimes I'll do things like that or not roll my support hand wrist enough or my stance will be jacked.

Zins is one hell of a Bullseye shooter. From what I've witnessed in myself having shot a bit of Silhouette in my youth is that it's hard sometimes to go faster because I find myself waiting for better sight pictures. I think Zins had this going on as well.

[MadcapMagician]

I'd propose the grip angle argument is mostly born out of familiarity and experience with a certain pistol.

Practice enough, shoot enough, etc with a certain pistol and your familiarity and comfort with a pistol will make it "feel right," including the grip angle.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Grip angle matters. If you draw 10,000 times with a glock them pick up a 1911 you will see the difference. How long does it take to get your hands drawing the different grip angled frame at the same speed A's the original? I don't know??? I shoot mine interchangeably and haven't had my 1911 long enough to run the timer side by side with the glock.