Is this now the best all around defensive .223 round?

[funkra]

It boils down to what your need is. Are you stockpiling for the Zombie Apocalypse, or are you looking for the best overall load for LE duty or home defense?

For the latter, one of the top bonded rounds would probably be the best choice.

Jake'sDad, thanks for your input. I have read many of your very well informed and researched posts, and often thought to myself "this guy knows what he's talking about."

IRT your question, this would not really be for home defense (I have several tactical shotguns for that). Can't say it would really be for law enforcement only either, as most of the time LE events are at close range. Really, the scenario is more akin to what you'd see in military combat, where you may end up patrolling from town to town (open terrain for a time, then in very uncomfortable close range urban conditions). The term Zombie Apocalypse may be an adequate description...IOW, perhaps an EOTW scenario where you have to travel on foot with only the ammo you have on your back, with little hope of resupply except what you find. Hence, the selection of NATO 5.56 (less weight/more rounds/very common) as well. I am a bit of an overzealous Federal ammo guy too (perhaps irrationally) , hence my desire to narrow the choices down to the FBI's XM556FBIT3 round and the Corps' MK318 Mod 0 SOST round. The concern with the XM556FBIT3 round is accuracy compared to the MK318 (which is OTM), and feeding problems caused by the exposed soft points (Doc has posted elsewhere that you may have feed problems at around 300 rounds or so). The Mk318 is however probably not as barrier-blind as the FBI round, and probably not quite as lethal either, given the Hague restrictions on military ammo.

[Ironman8]

From my research, and according to Molon's accuracy report ( https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60877 ) on the MK 318, you will only get about 3 moa out of that load. I would suspect that you would have better accuracy with the 556FBIT3.

In terms of barrier performance, Doc says that the 556FBIT3 is the best barrier round ever made.

What it really will come down to is how much you want to stockpile, if you can afford it, and is the performace of the 556FBIT3 (ballistics AND accuracy) so much better as to justify spending twice as much on that than the MK 318.

I am personally deciding between the Speer 24448 and the MK 318. From what I can tell, the Speer can be had for about $4 more per 20 rd box, but the accuracy and ballistics are better than the MK 318. The fact that the Speer is .223 vs the 5.56 MK 318 is negated due to how the rounds are supposed to work (expansion vs. fragmentation). I personally think the extra money may be worth it....

[funkra]

From my research, and according to Molon's accuracy report ( https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60877 ) on the MK 318, you will only get about 3 moa out of that load. I would suspect that you would have better accuracy with the 556FBIT3.

In terms of barrier performance, Doc says that the 556FBIT3 is the best barrier round ever made.

What it really will come down to is how much you want to stockpile, if you can afford it, and is the performace of the 556FBIT3 (ballistics AND accuracy) so much better as to justify spending twice as much on that than the MK 318.

I am personally deciding between the Speer 24448 and the MK 318. From what I can tell, the Speer can be had for about $4 more per 20 rd box, but the accuracy and ballistics are better than the MK 318. The fact that the Speer is .223 vs the 5.56 MK 318 is negated due to how the rounds are supposed to work (expansion vs. fragmentation). I personally think the extra money may be worth it....

Thanks Ironman. Have you seen any threads showing accuracy tests on 556FBIT3? Can we even buy that? What do you think of Mk262 ammo?

[Ironman8]

Thanks Ironman. Have you seen any threads showing accuracy tests on 556FBIT3? Can we even buy that? What do you think of Mk262 ammo?

No, but I would assume its closer to 1 moa since its a leo round and not mil....I don't think its available as far as I know.

MK262 is a pretty good round, but I hear that at CQB distances it doesn't fragment as good or reliably as the Hornady TAP T2...it supposedly shines in engagements out past 300 yds or so...accuracy is very good as well. However, if its all I had (CQB distance or not), I would use it without hesitation...same as MK 318, or anything else for that matter.

NOTE: I am by no means a ballistic expert. I just ask alot of questions about different rounds and do (probably a little TOO much) research here and on other sites. The info is out there...but don't hesitate to ask questions...just make sure you've done at least SOME homework first...

Hope this helps...

[Ironman8]

IRT your question, this would not really be for home defense (I have several tactical shotguns for that).

I would do a little research about this as well funkra. If you have an AR, then that would be the "ideal" home defense weapon...not the shotgun. There's plenty of info on this, its up to you to decide.

[C4IGrant]

Can you send me the data which favors an AR over a shotgun for home defense? Just curious. And by home defense, I mean the typical home robbery consisting of one or two guys INSIDE the house. I'm not talking about holding off a multitude of marauders shooting into my house from a distance. Thanks

The data is ALL OVER this forum. Please do some research.


C4

[C4IGrant]

Shottys are better at opening doors

SOME doors.


With that said, most civy's and LE will never do any type of breaching.



C4

[C4IGrant]

It was just an honest question...no need for criticism. I love the AR platform...I've been training on it for over 20 years. I prefer a AR for nearly every scenario out there, except for very close work in the home against the typical intruder. I am not alone in that opinion. To make a statement that "its common sense" and that "people who prefer a shotgun need their head examined" sounds pretty arrogant, especially considering a great many elite LE and military organizations have preferred a combat shotgun loaded with 00 buck for close range work for years. I don't think the statement that a shotgun is better at "almost nothing" is very accurate either. Your #1 goal in a combat situation is to kill the enemy with the first shot, and at home defense ranges a 12 gauge loaded with #1 buck (or 00 buck) does that better than any 5.56 round. One #1 buckshot round puts 12 x .30 caliber rounds downrange (9 with 00), with lower risk of over penetration than 5.56.

I don't know of any "elite" LE or Military that prefers the SG. It does have a limited roll to play though and that role is for breaching.

Incorrect on the 00 buck having lower penetration. 00 buck has ZERO fragmentation. Most of your .223/5.56 ammo (less M855) fragments (even out of an SBR). So that means that .223/5.56 is going to be a safer round if you miss the target.

IRT to home defense, I am talking about the typical home intrusion, conducted by one or two guys, entering or already inside the house, in a typical neighborhood with houses nearby. In that scenario, I think the 12 gauges one shot kill potential outweighs the the reduced magazine capacity of an AR. If I can't hit a guy in 8 shots at 10 feet, I need to do some more training (or if I need 30 x 5.56 rounds to do the job). I also want an instant kill because I REALLY don't want the BG to be able to squeeze off a round after he's been hit...there have been plenty of cases during deployment where we've had 5.56 rounds go straight through guys without the round expanding (usually happens in shorter barreled AR's where the rounds are traveling far slower, or where the round hits at a flat AOA so it doesn't yaw enough to tumble and expend its energy in the body, or at longer ranges resulting in slower velocities. And, this is a more common problem with guys who have no armor (rag head clothing), like you'd probably run into if someone breaks into your house.

There is no "magic" bullet. So no, the SG does not guarantee a one shot, one kill. The human body has to lose about 2 two liters of blood before they pass out. That means that they are still in the fight.

SG's suffer from two major problems IMHO. They are length and the ability to malfunction (either user induced or mechanically induced). If you have not run a SG in a shoot house or watched multiple shooters operate in a semi-stressful environment, I can tell you that people short stroke SG with EASE. Then you say that you are going with an auto loader. These are also not know to be the most reliable weapon either (when compared to an AR).

Now if my home was being over-run by zombie hoardes, where magazine capacity and well aimed head shots are a requirement, an AR will be the first choice. Anyhow, just my two cents, but I don't think the choice between an AR and a 12 gauge is a clear as you make it out to be. And yeah, I know I'm probably not going to win this argument on an M4 forum, but please remember I very much favor the AR in every other scenario.

As I have stated 10,000 times on here, the best weapon for HD is the one that you PRACTICE the most with. If you shoot more SG rounds than HG or AR, then that is the best choice for you. For most people, they shoot their HG and AR more than their SG. So why anyone would choose a weapon that they have the LEAST trigger time with makes VERY LITTLE sense. Couple that with the fact that most NO ONE ever attends a SG training class (so they don't know what they don't know about said weapon), I cannot understand why they would choose this weapon. I have attended one of the worlds best SG classes (Haught) and run a SG through a shoot house (and watched many other experienced shooters do that same). I also have one of the worlds best defensive SG's (M4) and I would choose this weapon LAST for HD.

Just sayin....


C4

[C4IGrant]

The Marine Corps used M1014 Benellis for close range work, such as sentry duty (but not only sentry duty).

Very limited use.

Never said any shotgun round quarantees a one shot kill. But, the probability is higher.

You hinted at this fact. It just isn't true.

I never mentioned a pump action as my weapon of choice. There are autoloaders out there which are very good, and you own one.

I understand, but most feel that the pump is the best choice. As good as the M4 is, it is STILL not as reliable as an AR.

You mentioned your M4...why did you spend $1600 on that if you are so critical of shotguns for SD? Honest question...truly not trying to be sarcastic. If its for anything other than SD/combat, you could have made some better choices, as you know.

Agree 100% about the training.

First, I did not spend (am a dealer). Second everyone should own a SG. So if you are going to do it, might as well get one of the best.

I also own a Beretta 391 for upland bird/clays. That is for hunting. The M4 is for shooting bad people, but is LAST on my list for guns I would grab. This opinion is based off the fact that it is VERY limited in its overall abilities when compared to an AR.



C4

[Iraqgunz]

funkra,

I encourage you to spend more time reading and less time typing. Every single thing you talked about here has been discussed close to 500 times on this website.

If anyone wants to know why they had their posts deleted, it's pretty simple. It has nothing to do with the topic.