Accuracy Question for guys like Molon ONLY!!

[VaniB]

You know the old saying?..... "Show me the money!"
Well I say; "Show me the group!".

This is a group that MOLON fired and what I'm talking about;



And here is the link to his thread in this same forum:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63446

I don't know about most of you bench-style shooting guys out there, but I get so tired of some guys bragging about how easy it is for them to shoot 1/2" - 3/4" groups with their AR15. But most guys never seem to have photos of it. (And NO...give me a break will ya; 3 shot groups DON'T COUNT. I don't want to see them!! ......if it's legit skill that you have, and not partially luck, then you ought to be able to do it with 5 shots......and know in your heart that your photo doesn't represent a group that's a fluke that you can't often repeat.) Well, I've got enough problems keeping 5 shot groups with my RRA NM A4 rifle in 3/4" groups.....no less doing what Molon does; making sub-1/2" 10 shot groups. (I can't do that at all!!...not once.)

So, to you Molon (or any other legit sub 3/4" 5 shot group shooters out there) I direct a couple of questions;


How do you hold your rifle when you get these kinds of incredible groups?
Here's my dilemma I have when holding my rifle; When I shoot my A4 RRA NM for the utmost test of accuracy, I feel it is best to load each round individually into the chamber without a magazine. But when I do this, it requires that I change my body position and upset my hold of the rifle to look into the chamber and load the cartridge. This ruins the "rythym" of maintaining a steady and consistant hold. However, if I allow the magazine to load the 5 rounds semi-auto into the barrel, (and be able to maintain a less interupted hold) then how do I know if the bullets aren't getting deformed on their way into the chamber? Sooo.....however you would tell me you hold and operate your Ar15 rifle to get these tight groups will be good enough for me.

Next question for you;

Is my problem maybe originating in that RRA Wilson factory barrel? Might I instead be able to maintain steady sub 3/4" 5 shot groups with a Wilson 1-7 WOA 20" SDM barrel? I'm not crazy about it being a Wilson barrel, and wonder if Wilson's even the right stuff to be messing with. WOA offers the same style SDM barrel in 1-8 in a Krieger Criterion barrel for $40 more. (is this Krieger "Criterion" knock off any better then Wilson?) I like my AR15 barrels to be service oriented, and NOT terribly heavy. So the lighter fluted SDM barrel is more what I would like. But, I already have a Wilson factory barrel in that RRA NM rifle, and I'm not impressed with the 1" groups I get with it. (4 years of it now!) Yes, I get a 3/4" group once in awhile (or those silly 3 shots groups that measure 1/2" just about as often) but, this is basically a steady 1"- 1 1/8" shooter. This is why, I'm wondering if my hold is the problem, or if the problem is that factory Wilson barrel. (??)

I shoot 1/4" to 1/2" groups regularly with my custom barrel bolt action varmint rifles, but this 1" accuracy with my RRA AR is driving me nuts.

(PS Molon; Now you know why I asked for you to give me 30 minutes to write this. )

[taliv]

not sure if you just meant AR15s, but if KAC SR-25s count...

I don't shoot paper much, or for groups, as steel is so much more fun, so I don't have many pics, but the one below was the only group I shot at 600 that day, not just the best of many attempts.
The way I held the rifle when shooting this group was laying in the grass while it was raining (but no wind) with a harris bipod, accushot monopod, and my face smushed against the PRS stock.

Kinda hard to see the holes, which are mostly 5 o'clock in the 9 ring. Didn't have anybody in the pits pulling that day, so I couldn't see the holes until I drove down, or I would have tried to centered it up.




there's a geissele trigger in there now, but at the time I shot that group, it was the old-style KAC trigger which had about a >6 lb pull.


I feel your pain on your dilemma. I shoot NRA/CMP HP which requires single loading and I'm left-handed, so that means I've got to get out of position between EVERY SHOT to put a cartridge in the gun (since my right hand is tied to the gun with the sling and a huge mitt). Since we shoot 20 shot strings (plus sighters in NRA), in a way, that puts me at a huge disadvantage, because it takes me longer and messes up my position. But in another way, it gives me 20x as much practice finding my NPA as everyone else, so I eventually get pretty good at it.

When I'm just plinking steel though, I just load the mag and shoot. I don't single feed. The group above was shot from the mag too. But you know, there's an easy way to find out: shoot some groups mag-fed and then single-fed and see which is bigger.

As for the wilson vs kreiger barrels, isn't WOA's house brand wilson? I think they are. or at least they were when I got mine from them for my RRA NM service rifle. It was good enough for me to get my distinguished badge, but that doesn't require 1/2moa shooting. Honestly, I don't think I ever shot it off a bench for groups, so I don't know how well it would do. You could always call WOA and ask them.

[ALCOAR]

Bench kinda sucks imho, shoot prone...be patient and find the right loads to feed your particular barrel and most importantly work on yourself more than you work on your gun.


MRP Recce





MRP SPR

[VaniB]

"As for the wilson vs kreiger barrels, isn't WOA's house brand wilson? I think they are. You could always call WOA and ask them."

As mentioned in my looooong original post WOA's 1-7 twist SDM is offered in Wilson, and 1-8 twist @ $40 more is in Krieger "Criterion" (BTW, Fulton Arms uses "Criterion").I like the SDM barrel because it's heavilly fluted and weighs almost a pound less. However, the fact that I will not shoot anything lighter then 68 grain BTHP bullets might make things more challenging accuracy wise. (?)





It seems Mr Holliger is very brief with his Emails (because he probably gets a ton) and wouldn't directly address my question of the size of the groups. And I wasn't sure if his sidekick Paul who I spoke with on the phone, is being more of a salesman and says more or less what I want to hear. I'm concerned because I have to have faith that WOA's reaming and chambering of a 1-7 Wilson barrel (or a 1-8 "Criterion" barrel) will make all the extra difference/smaller group I seek. This is at least what Paul there claims. I sure can't get the sub 3/4" accuracy in my factory RRA NM Wilson Barrel. But, I will go along with the WOA and buy one, unless somebody tells me otherwise.


TRIDENT,

Those are some very nice tight 5 shot group photos. That's all I'd be looking for...and I'd hope the WOA can do it consistantly if I do my part. Obviously, it takes more skill to hold a rifle still in a bipod like you do, then like from my rest and other equipment pictured below;


This is what I use with my Ar15's:


I also use very fussy handloads and wind flags. I shoot 5 rounds per relay and never let my barrel heat up. My trigger is a Jewel set at 3 lbs. I've tried two different 24X magnification scopes held in two different LaRue mounts. The results are always the same in which 3/4" 5 shot groups are not often, and 1" -1 1/8" more the norm. All my handloads have bullets that are weighed and the cartridges checked for concentricity. One day I fired one group that was 1/2";

Then I changed the lot of powder purposely ( just as a test), came back a week later to try the same exact load again, and the groups went back up to 1" . I'm really tired of all this inconsistancy. (4 years of it) I know some of you guys get consistant good groups (aprox 3/4" groups) using bipods and even factory ammo WITHOUT all the extra fussin I go through.




I'm not sure what the problem is, but know I don't have it with my bolt action groups. They're almost always 1/2" and smaller. This is typical target with my 2 varmint rigs:

[ALCOAR]

Thanks, those are some excellent groups by you as well.

I really like the BH's 68gr. match HP which uses the same bullet as you reload with.....you should try the 75gr. Hornady T2 bullet as I believe if a barrel shoots one good it shoots the other equally as well.

You should this next time at the range go prone just to have a fresh comparison of those groups vs. your bench groups.

I def. think having high magnification is the best route to go for shooting itty bitty groups however if I had to replace my 10x NF's with a 25x fixed or something than it would kinda defeat the purpose of my particular builds.

[VaniB]

Thanks, those are some excellent groups by you as well.

I really like the BH's 68gr. match HP which uses the same bullet as you reload with.....you should try the 75gr. Hornady T2 bullet as I believe if a barrel shoots one good it shoots the other equally as well.

You should this next time at the range go prone just to have a fresh comparison of those groups vs. your bench groups.

I def. think having high magnification is the best route to go for shooting itty bitty groups however if I had to replace my 10x NF's with a 25x fixed or something than it would kinda defeat the purpose of my particular builds.

I agree with you that these kinds of weapons are out of place for bench rest style shooting, especially when used in their tactical form with collapsible stock, picatinny rails, etc. as we do. (ie; we didn't buy or build them in "spacegun" configuration)

I basically only shoot my ARs' bench style when I'm testing them out for their full potential and trying to find the handloads the rifle likes best. But, once I've established 3/4" MOA accuracy, I'm then content to shoot it more casually from sandbags, having the satiscfaction of knowing its a CQB weapon or a badass precision paper sniper rifle.

You're darn good with 10X magnification for paper punching. I wouldn't ever attempt that low a magnification for that kind of target shooting. I wonder how much your groups might shrink with 24X like I use? BTW....you are loading your 5 rounds into the mags all at one time and firing these group in semi-auto sequence, right? (ie; I don't suppose you're feeding them in one at a time into the chamber.)

[rob_s]

I am nowhere near as accomplished a precision shooter as many of the members here, but I have pretty consistently surprised myself whenever I have fired for groups trying to test the accuracy of rifles.

What is your end goal in shooting for groups? Are you testing yourself, the ammunition, the rifle, or something else? In terms of rests and shooting positions the end goal is going to matter, or at least it would to me.

In my case I'm typically using factory ammunition to test production guns for the group-size box for an article. I generally shoot these groups at 50 yards with a 9x optic mostly out of administrative laziness in that I don't want to have to waste time marching out to 100 yards and getting a different optic. In the current issue of Guns & Weapons for LE I have an article on the BCM RECCE 14 which is a 14.5" milspec barrel with a free-float rail system. I shot this with the 9x Leupold mentioned above and a Harris bipod attached to the rail. Best group at 50 yards was Black Hills 77 grain blue box which produced a best 5-shot group of .40", which should translate to .8 MOA give or take.

If I was really serious about testing the gun I would buy something like a Caldwell Lead Sled, and as it turns out I will be buying one of those for a different project and so it will become my rest for use in these tests.

If, however, I was interested in testing myself I would shoot from positions which were applicable anywhere, like prone, unconventional prones, improvised positions, etc.

[DMR]

Old photo of 15 round group from a test mule DMR of questionalbe birth. My daughter was with me and wanted to go home when I was shooting this one. 8 year olds can be persistant and I was coming off the rifle between just about every shot. Still managed to keep the rate of fire high enough that I was holding center of the orange 3" blob at 100 yds due to the mirage coming off the barrel at 10x. The first shot was from a oiled barrel with the first two shots each scooting out of the group


All in all not to bad. The hand drawn box is a 1" square. I had made some changes to the rifle and was going to rezero, but ran out of time so I just put in this group.

[VaniB]

What is your end goal in shooting for groups? Are you testing yourself, the ammunition, the rifle, or something else? .......

...... I generally shoot these groups at 50 yards with a 9x optic mostly out of administrative laziness in that I don't want to have to waste time marching out to 100 yards and getting a different optic. .......

If, however, I was interested in testing myself I would shoot from positions which were applicable anywhere, like prone, unconventional prones, improvised positions, etc.

Hello Rob,

You're absolutely right that some guys (albeit very few) can shoot groups like Molon or Trident. The reason why these guys can shoot these groups and have photos of it, is because such things matter to them, and they make the effort.... (I'm trying too!!) I won't knock it that this sought of grouping simply doesn't matter to other guys.....and they think it's ridiculous.

As far your asking me the question what is my "end game"; Simply, I have always been an accuracy nut and get great pleasure out of it. Because I don't hunt, the satisfaction I get is when I know I can put tight clusters on a paper. BUT THE AR15 IS A MILITARY WEAPON and I refuse to alter it to be a competition "space gun" or dress it up with such a long or heavy varmint barrel that it loses its important battle virtues. So, because I don't participate in formal competition, I'm not interested in putting all kinds of weird crap on it just to win a tournament. I do own a SHTF Colt 6920. It has an Eotech with a magnifier and a BUIS. That gun shoots 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" groups using my Eotech and 68BTHPs'. That kind of accuracy is good enough for me because it meets my criteria as a special purpose gun. (ie; it's light & has plenty practical accuracy as a "shtf" weapon)

But now that I already own a Colt shtf "plinker", I don't need anymore of the same. I now desires to own a 18" AR.308, and one more AR 5.56 with a 20" WOA barrel. Both rifles must print consistant 3/4" groups or better, or I'll keep dumping the rifles or atleast dumping the barrels. I intend to make them both into special purpose weapons with a QD 6x-24X scope and a BUIS. I'm still waiting to get a custom barrel installed on both my RRA NM, and DPMS 308 rifles, but once I do I'll expect better accuracy.....or I'll know then that the problem is with me.


Here is my DPMS 308 that started life as a 24" Panther. In this photo it wears an 18.5" Fulton barrel. I couldn't get sub 1" accuracy with either barrel, and both barrels have been dumped. I'm currently waiting on a custom Lothar Walther 18" barrel.

You mentioned that you do 50 yard shooting. Here are two 50 yard groups from my DPMS 308 rifle with the factory 24" fluted barrel. It's not hard for me to do that at 50 yards. But as I've said before, I'm not looking to kid or bullshit myself or anybody else.....if I can't get consistant 3/4" groups at 100 yards then I'm just not going be a happy camper. And consistant 3/4" groups at 100 yards just seem to escape me with any AR I've tried. My mistake was ordering the Fulton 18.5" with a chrome lined barrel. They claim "no accuracy loss with our chrome lining process" and like a fool I believed it because I liked that it weighed only 2 1/2lb and came in black. But, everything is relative, and I suppose if 1" to 1 1/4" groups at 100 yards can be considered "accurate", then Fulton wasn't lieing.



As for my style of shooting; if I can regularly get 1/4" - 1/2" groups with my bolt actions, then I'll keep benching my ARs' the same way. When I finally arrived at those consistant sub 3/4" groups, then I'll loosen up and shoot it off of bags or bipods.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't have a target as tight as Molons. But I have found groups from .5 to .75 easy with my Stealth. Here are some pics.

I use outers sand back and a rear bag as well for the stock.