Accuracy Question for guys like Molon ONLY!!

[MTechnik]

Here is my RRA varmint with the same wilson 20" barrel at 100 yards:



That was done shooting with a front harris bipod, and a bag with sand and my shoulder at the back. Stock 2-stage trigger. The stock has been changed out for a Magpu UBR, and the glass is a 6-18" nikon buckmaster with side focus in an armalite mount.

That was a 5 shot group shot before I realized I need to shoot 10, but the key for me was the ammo. I don't reload, so finding midway having 69 grain SMK Black Hills Gold blue box, I jumped on a box.

After shooting that, and seeing what the right ammo can do at 100 yards, I decided I need to push myself and do distance more. For now I'm shooting the much cheaper prvi ammo while I learn to shoot at longer distances. Once I find myself getting better, and stable, I'll try more expensive ammo to see how I'm really fairing.

[Zanshin]

If someone already mentioned this then sorry, but I feel obligated to bring this up. Accuracy freaks reload. Every barrel is different. You can shoot a whole load of different factory offerings loading Sierra Match Kings and do really well and get tight groups, or you could learn to reload and load those SMKs yourself, tailor the load to the barrel by experimenting with primer/powder/seating depth/bullet combos and get extreme accuracy out of a good barrel. It isn't that hard to do, but you need to spend the $$ to tool up for it, and also need a place to store your gear and reload. You also need time. And when you aren't working up accuracy loads you can reload plinking ammo on the cheap.

[The_Hammer_Man]

Like Rob I don't spend a lot of time at the reloading bench. I don't have time! (Neither does he probably.) Like a lot of the builders/smiths on this forum I spend 90% of my time trying to make a living and less than 5% at the range shooting for groups.

That said, I like other builders take a variety of commercial ammo to the range with me to test fire for function, and accuracy, the weapons we've built that week. (I get one maybe two four hour windows at the range each week. Wish it was more.)

I mag load 10 rounds of each type of ammo and, with the weapon in my rube goldbergian "ransom" rest that I made, I fire 5x 10rd groups, one group per type of ammo. This always done at 100 yards and under a variety of different weather conditions.

All that to one side.. I, like you and others on M4C like to shoot itty bitty holes/groups at varying ranges. I usually don't keep take pics of my targets. The test targets get boxed up with the upper/completed weapon and delivered to it's new owner.

Like the title of my response states.. this post "made" me get a digital camera so that I can "back my bullshit" up.


Heh,,, Thanks,, I think!

My best results to date have been with 18.5" WOA 1:8 wylde chambered barrels. They vary, of course, in their tastes for different ammunition. I try to get several barrels from the same "batch" so that their characteristics will be predictable.

and yes barrels are weird! I've had 1:7 mil contour barrels that LOVED 45 gr varmint rounds and others that turned them into buckshot before they were 10 yrds down range. We had a 24" bull barrel in 1:9 w/wylde chamber that ARDORED 77 gr SMK's.

go figure eh?

[Kevin_J]

Like Rob I don't spend a lot of time at the reloading bench. I don't have time! (Neither does he probably.) Like a lot of the builders/smiths on this forum I spend 90% of my time trying to make a living and less than 5% at the range shooting for groups.

That said, I like other builders take a variety of commercial ammo to the range with me to test fire for function, and accuracy, the weapons we've built that week. (I get one maybe two four hour windows at the range each week. Wish it was more.)

I mag load 10 rounds of each type of ammo and, with the weapon in my rube goldbergian "ransom" rest that I made, I fire 5x 10rd groups, one group per type of ammo. This always done at 100 yards and under a variety of different weather conditions.

All that to one side.. I, like you and others on M4C like to shoot itty bitty holes/groups at varying ranges. I usually don't keep take pics of my targets. The test targets get boxed up with the upper/completed weapon and delivered to it's new owner.

Like the title of my response states.. this post "made" me get a digital camera so that I can "back my bullshit" up.


Heh,,, Thanks,, I think!

My best results to date have been with 18.5" WOA 1:8 wylde chambered barrels. They vary, of course, in their tastes for different ammunition. I try to get several barrels from the same "batch" so that their characteristics will be predictable.

and yes barrels are weird! I've had 1:7 mil contour barrels that LOVED 45 gr varmint rounds and others that turned them into buckshot before they were 10 yrds down range. We had a 24" bull barrel in 1:9 w/wylde chamber that ARDORED 77 gr SMK's.

go figure eh?

I was laughing when I read this. I have the same issue, machine a barrel, get the upper built, test at weeks end and never photograph the groups. I've taken pics of a few but mostly from when I started.

I've had the same experiences with barrels favoring ammo. I usually use Federal Gold match 69 SMKs as a base line when testing. A few months ago I was testing two builds that used two blanks from the same producer purchased at the same time. There was a marked difference in accuracy with 69's. The guy that didn't like the 69's shot 77's like hell on wheels though. It really is interesting how necessary ammo tuning to a specific barrel can achieve tangible results.

[a1fabweld]

OP, add me to the sub .75" list. I built an altered version of the SDMR AR type rifle & changed a few things. First off its based on the 20" SDMR WOA 1/7 barrel w/A2 front sight, CMT receiver, DD 12" Lite Rail, LMT BCG, A2 stock, Harris bipod. For optics I went with the newer Bushnell 3-12x44 FFP Elite 4200 Tactical & mounted it in an American Defense mount. I've had it out 2 times and been able to group 5 shots at approx 5/8" with Hornady 75grn Match ammo off the bench with bipod up front & rear unsupported. I have pics if needed (of one of the groups). That barrel is the chit!

[InfiniteGrim]

In my opinion I find rests and rear bags to be cheating. I use only the gun, bipod and myself.

Here is the best I have shot. I havent had much time to develop reloads, so at this point I'm shooting 5 rounds of each load, so no 10 shot groups for me.

So far my best

23.5gr of varget
75gr Hornady BTHP
CCI 41 primers

[VaniB]

OP, add me to the sub .75" list. I built an altered version of the SDMR AR type rifle & changed a few things. First off its based on the 20" SDMR WOA 1/7 barrel w/A2 front sight, CMT receiver, DD 12" Lite Rail, LMT BCG, A2 stock, Harris bipod. For optics I went with the newer Bushnell 3-12x44 FFP Elite 4200 Tactical & mounted it in an American Defense mount. I've had it out 2 times and been able to group 5 shots at approx 5/8" with Hornady 75grn Match ammo off the bench with bipod up front & rear unsupported. I have pics if needed (of one of the groups). That barrel is the chit!

I'm encouraged to hear this. Because about 6 weeks go (a month after I started this thread), I ordered and recieved this same WOA 1-7 20" SDM barrel that you report these stellar 5/8" groups......but haven't had a chance to do the rebuild. As well, I also bought a DD 12" Lite Rail, just like yours. I plan to do the initial tests keeping the factory RRA A2 stock. But once I obtain the tight groups I seek, I intend to then change out the A2 stock to an LMT collapsible stock like our buddy trident shows in the photo. I will use a Jewell trigger and 24X Bushnell on this new rebuilt rifle.

So, I have high hopes that with a rifle rest, a higher magnification scope, and tuned handloads, I should be able to finally obtain consistant sub 3/4" groups. I plan to post the new rifle pics and targets in the coming weeks. Thanks for the reminder that I need to try 75 grain BTHP'swith my new 1-7 barrel. Where as the 68 BTHP worked best in my RRA 1-8 factory barrel, the 75's might do great in the new WOA barrel with the fater 1-7 twist. Stay tuned.

[DDgunslinger]

I am no Molon by any means. However, I feel like others have stated that I shoot better from the prone supported than I do from the bench. I can't get comfortable, and for me that is the biggest thing. One big thing that I have found is most people don't know about the importance of natural point of aim, i.e when you're on target close your eyes and take a few breaths. When you open your eyes the point of aim should be the same.

Here is the target I shot after alot of trash talk on another forum about shot groups. Granted I may have taken this to the extremes, but I wanted to show that good marksmanship fundamental are more important than a $800 barrel and $1200 scope. This is 30rds at approximately 75yrds I believe it was.


I was using my DDM4 pictures below:


Anway just food for thought, I don't think it has anything to do with you barrel... just my .02

[a1fabweld]

I'm encouraged to hear this. Because about 6 weeks go (a month after I started this thread), I ordered and recieved this same WOA 1-7 20" SDM barrel that you report these stellar 5/8" groups......but haven't had a chance to do the rebuild. As well, I also bought a DD 12" Lite Rail, just like yours. I plan to do the initial tests keeping the factory RRA A2 stock. But once I obtain the tight groups I seek, I intend to then change out the A2 stock to an LMT collapsible stock like our buddy trident shows in the photo. I will use a Jewell trigger and 24X Bushnell on this new rebuilt rifle.

So, I have high hopes that with a rifle rest, a higher magnification scope, and tuned handloads, I should be able to finally obtain consistant sub 3/4" groups. I plan to post the new rifle pics and targets in the coming weeks. Thanks for the reminder that I need to try 75 grain BTHP'swith my new 1-7 barrel. Where as the 68 BTHP worked best in my RRA 1-8 factory barrel, the 75's might do great in the new WOA barrel with the fater 1-7 twist. Stay tuned.

Sounds like you should have a great shooter. I wouldn't worry too much about really high magnification on your scope. In fact, with myself among other shooters I know, the higher magnification picks up the slightest mirage and makes it harder to focus. Another thing is when shooting at relatively short distances (300yds & down) The high magnification makes it hard to hold steady on one aiming point. The longer you try to focus, the more you start moving around. Then you get frustrated and fugedaboudit!

On my bolt gun I run a 22X Nightforce. It's not FFP. I used to run it at 22X from 200-1K yds at my local matches due to being able to calculate wind holdovers using the reticle. Then I started shooting it from 200-500 yds at 11X (1/2 value holdovers) & turned it to 22X from 600-1K yds. I made better shots up close with the lower magnification. Just something to think about.

[Glorybigs]

If you want some very affordable guidance on proper shooting techniques, visit the next Appleseed near you.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/index.html

If you have never been taught and trained in the fundamentals, attend a boot camp and try to earn a Rifleman patch.