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Thread: Red Dots on Handguns

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by captbarty View Post
    You are quite correct but you used two very important words - "premier warriors." There is no doubt that they can make full use of and derive benefit from that level of sophistication. The original poster asked about "defensive use". I interpreted that to mean, perhaps incorrectly, that it would be for an individual in a defensive situation. I benefited from some words of wisdom imparted by usmc03 on this site regarding home defense use of an M4 in which usmc03 commented that irons were preferred because "invasions happen quickly ..... not waiting for one to turn on electronic devices ..." and went on to recommend irons with a good light. Experimentation and testing convinced me. I use a Meprolight front with a foregrip mounted light. Of course, that's an M4. On one of my revolvers which has a rail, I use a light I mount on that rail and an integral red dot (though I recognize some of the liabilities of those) which is turned on by momentary thumb pressure. I never use one on a carry weapon and when I've had to use a weapon in the (thankfully distant) past, it was with actually very rudimentary irons; fortunately, I'm still here.

    So, that's the reasoning. Special operations has different requirements than I got from the initial post. Also, those holsters which allow RDS are specialized and larger. I appreciate your comments but I think we are at cross-purposes.
    Shootouts with Civy CCW holders (or home invasions) are generally at conversation distances 3ft-21ft. I would be shocked if anyone even looks at their sights. So I wouldn't be too worried about a RDS slowing you down.


    C4

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiservontexas View Post
    I rather just have a laser like crimson trace. I would not want a red dot on my handguns. Maybe I am old fashioned now, but as been said about cons, "unless pristen" one is going to be trying to find the dot. That is enough to get me not to rush out for it. I admit I would try it on a gun if a friend had one, but it just looks cluncky too me.

    Lasers do have their place. They also have a big problem and that is distance (as in you cannot see them past a certain distance in full sun). Lasers are also zero'd between 10-12yds (commonly) so if you are shooting at say 25yds, the laser is of no use.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 10-28-10 at 16:57.

  3. #33
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    Grant- I've heard mixed things... if you're in a dark house, how does the dual illuminate rmr deal with a bright white light in the way of washout?
    Acta Non Verba

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lethal dose View Post
    Grant- I've heard mixed things... if you're in a dark house, how does the dual illuminate rmr deal with a bright white light in the way of washout?
    If it is a white room and small, you will most likely experience washout. This is why I run laser grips.


    C4

  5. #35
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    Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.

    Anything with a red dot can't be used by anyone but tier one operators out of the holster? Are you kidding me?

    Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?

    There have been other crazy comments made by people who know full-well that they have no experience in what they're talking about, but they refuse to admit it.

    Red dots offer a few advantages: 1. They allow the shooter to be target focused. 2. They allow for a significant increase in speed. This is a result of the target focus. Whereas normally a shooter focuses on the front sight, then snaps his eyes to the next target, then brings the front sight into focus on that target in time to make the shot before snapping his eyes to the next target, and so on; with the red dot you simply focus on the target, see the dot on the target (no need to focus on the dot), fire, and snap to the next target.

    There are some misconceptions, however. You can't really expect a significant increase in accuracy. Most accuracy problems come from a bad grip and specifically a bad trigger pull. The dot has nothing to do with that. Plus, an 8MOA dot at long range is not going to be the most precise tool, so the whole "long range accuracy" claim is a bit of a crock - not to mention the significant increase in sight-offset that results from mounting a red dot to your pistol (and the resulting zero issues - if you're dead on at 15 yards how high are you at 30?). In any case, very few people have trouble aligning their sights, just like very few people have trouble putting the dot on a target. Aiming is the easy part. It's keeping the sights or dot on the target while you're pulling the trigger that's the hard part. If you're way overgripping with your strong hand or snatching the trigger, your shot will be just as bad with a red dot as it was with iron sights. You'll still miss - but faster!

    With the above said, for a good shooter red dots offer a significant advantage. After all - you don't see ANY IPSC/USPSA Open shooters opting to use a gun with iron sights anymore, do you? It may take a little more time for the concept and the technology to catch up with the legitimate tactical crowd to the point that they're standard on duty pistols, but it will happen eventually.
    Last edited by beltjones; 10-28-10 at 22:42.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by captbarty View Post
    In my opinion, probably worth about half of what you paid for it, is RDS are helpful for eyesight and helpful under some circumstances manipulating long guns. Bulky and gimmicky on a pistol unless for some kind of competition that doesn't require drawing. I like hi visibility front sights, whether hi-viz as a brand or even Trijicon/Meprolight tritium. As a prior poster said, learn to use a handgun well and the sight issue is simpler.
    Actually red dot sights have been used in USPSA and ISPC for years on open class pistols and this sport does require drawing. We do use special holsters however. I just stepped into open class myself. It does take some getting used to but I am very hopefull of the new smaller dots on duty guns. The main issue will be durability.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.

    Anything with a red dot can't be used by anyone but tier one operators out of the holster? Are you kidding me?

    Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?

    There have been other crazy comments made by people who know full-well that they have no experience in what they're talking about, but they refuse to admit it.

    Red dots offer a few advantages: 1. They allow the shooter to be target focused. 2. They allow for a significant increase in speed. This is a result of the target focus. Whereas normally a shooter focuses on the front sight, then snaps his eyes to the next target, then brings the front sight into focus on that target in time to make the shot before snapping his eyes to the next target, and so on; with the red dot you simply focus on the target, see the dot on the target (no need to focus on the dot), fire, and snap to the next target.

    There are some misconceptions, however. You can't really expect a significant increase in accuracy. Most accuracy problems come from a bad grip and specifically a bad trigger pull. The dot has nothing to do with that. Plus, an 8MOA dot at long range is not going to be the most precise tool, so the whole "long range accuracy" claim is a bit of a crock - not to mention the significant increase in sight-offset that results from mounting a red dot to your pistol (and the resulting zero issues - if you're dead on at 15 yards how high are you at 30?). In any case, very few people have trouble aligning their sights, just like very few people have trouble putting the dot on a target. Aiming is the easy part. It's keeping the sights or dot on the target while you're pulling the trigger that's the hard part. If you're way overgripping with your strong hand or snatching the trigger, your shot will be just as bad with a red dot as it was with iron sights. You'll still miss - but faster!

    With the above said, for a good shooter red dots offer a significant advantage. After all - you don't see ANY IPSC/USPSA Open shooters opting to use a gun with iron sights anymore, do you? It may take a little more time for the concept and the technology to catch up with the legitimate tactical crowd to the point that they're standard on duty pistols, but it will happen eventually.
    Your correct on the dot not improving pure accuracy but it did help me way back when I was a freshman in college. I was just starting out in bullseye and a friend had a dot on his pistol. I could see when I was flinching by the dot dropping out of view. I was able to correct the problem once I knew what I was doing. From that point of view they can help you with your accuracy.
    pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  8. #38
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    Where do you guys get the mounts from the RMR for your handguns. Is there any for 1911's
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Your correct on the dot not improving pure accuracy but it did help me way back when I was a freshman in college. I was just starting out in bullseye and a friend had a dot on his pistol. I could see when I was flinching by the dot dropping out of view. I was able to correct the problem once I knew what I was doing. From that point of view they can help you with your accuracy.
    pat
    Ahh. Good point. They may provide more obvious feedback, but it's up to the shooter to make use of it.

    The people on this thread who are saying that the put a dot on their gun and suddenly their accuracy improved are likely telling tales. Regardless of what some will claim, it's not as simple as just putting the dot where you want the bullet to go and just mashing on the trigger.

    One very valid point that I didn't address is the fact that red dots seem to be very helpful for people with aging eyes. It takes a lot of "ocular dexterity" to snap from targets to sights and back to the next target. Likewise, a lot of farsighted people have trouble focusing on the front sight the way they need to. The red dot makes that much less of an issue.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.

    Anything with a red dot can't be used by anyone but tier one operators out of the holster? Are you kidding me?

    Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?

    There have been other crazy comments made by people who know full-well that they have no experience in what they're talking about, but they refuse to admit it.
    Thanks for saying this. I was going to mention something, but you've already called the Bravo Sierra on those that seem to be all hat and no 'cattle'.

    I've ran quite a bit of rounds through at G19 equipped w/ Trijicon RMR 8 MOA, built by Bowie Tactical. Like a lot of trickle down techniques, gear etc from the competition world, this set up is faster for all the reasons that beltjones already mentioned. If you want the skinny on a set up, call Bowie yourself like I did. The Trijicon RMR has been solid, which says a lot for me since I consider holster wear & 500-1000rds a week a beautiful thing.

    Will post up some thoughts, video and pictures at a later time.

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