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Thread: Red Dots on Handguns

  1. #41
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    One day pistol mounted RD Sights will be standard.

    For me however, I won't ever transition to them, but not because I don't like them. Simply because I have more reasons not to have them than to have them.

    For me it's simpler to have two sighting systems (Irons, and CTC grip) than to have a red dot sight, with co-witnessed iron sights, and a laser sight. It's a little too much for me to keep track of.

    I also admire the low profile of pistols without them, and the fact that I don't have to worry about zeroing issues or battery changes with them.

    (Well... at least another set of zeroing issues and battery changes. By the way: I keep my CTC grip zeroed to 25 meters by the way, and from what I can tell it's POA/POI.)

    I'd rather wait until somebody makes a RDS specifically made for pistols before I decide I want one, and still wouldn't use it on a defensive pistol.

    But if it works out for you, than you need it. For me, I prefer my irons, and a laser grip. Which FWIW hasn't washed out for me, and I have no problem engaging a steel plate at 100-110 yards, with I-Dot sights.

    Also FWIW my tool is a Glock 17.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.
    First, welcome to the forum! Second, I would suggest cutting down on the attitude. If you do not agree with what someone has stated, try a more subtle aproach. Third, I am unaware of anyone in this thread that has ID'd themselves as a "tactical expert." Please advise us as to who this person is.

    A good many people (like DocGKR) and myself shoot in a lot of advanced schools. If you think there isn't any competition in them, then you must have never gone to any.

    Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
    No, I am not kidding you. I am slightly slower on picking up the dot VS just looking at the front sight when going after 1 second draw and fires. Is part of it the fact that I have been shooting iron sights all my life and have only beeing running a RDS on my pistol for 1.5yrs? Most likely.

    Red dots offer a few advantages: 1. They allow the shooter to be target focused. 2. They allow for a significant increase in speed. This is a result of the target focus. Whereas normally a shooter focuses on the front sight, then snaps his eyes to the next target, then brings the front sight into focus on that target in time to make the shot before snapping his eyes to the next target, and so on; with the red dot you simply focus on the target, see the dot on the target (no need to focus on the dot), fire, and snap to the next target.

    There are some misconceptions, however. You can't really expect a significant increase in accuracy. Most accuracy problems come from a bad grip and specifically a bad trigger pull. The dot has nothing to do with that. Plus, an 8MOA dot at long range is not going to be the most precise tool, so the whole "long range accuracy" claim is a bit of a crock - not to mention the significant increase in sight-offset that results from mounting a red dot to your pistol (and the resulting zero issues - if you're dead on at 15 yards how high are you at 30?). In any case, very few people have trouble aligning their sights, just like very few people have trouble putting the dot on a target. Aiming is the easy part. It's keeping the sights or dot on the target while you're pulling the trigger that's the hard part. If you're way overgripping with your strong hand or snatching the trigger, your shot will be just as bad with a red dot as it was with iron sights. You'll still miss - but faster!
    Agree.

    With the above said, for a good shooter red dots offer a significant advantage. After all - you don't see ANY IPSC/USPSA Open shooters opting to use a gun with iron sights anymore, do you? It may take a little more time for the concept and the technology to catch up with the legitimate tactical crowd to the point that they're standard on duty pistols, but it will happen eventually.
    The RDS's that these "gun game" guys run are typically C-More's. I have used them. They are MUCH faster to pick up than an RMR type RDS IMHO. So if you are comparing the C-More to an RMR and stating that they are both the same (in regards to picking up the dot at the same speed off a draw), I would have to disagree with that.

    I look forward to seeing pics of your setup, years of experience with it (in both an operational and competition arena).



    C4

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
    No, not according to my timer. I start seeing my front sight much earlier and I adjust my sight picture as I press out. With dot, I see it late in presentation and, even though I don't need to worry about sight alignment, I can't compensate for time lost during press-out.

    I found it is imperative to change target height and distances, even if by not much, when practicing with dot. Multiple reps at the same target create a false sense of proficiency with dot - one learns how to present it fast on given target, but if target is moved, a fishing for dot begins again, as slight change in pistol presentation/ angulation makes me lose that dot.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    No, not according to my timer. I start seeing my front sight much earlier and I adjust my sight picture as I press out. With dot, I see it late in presentation and, even though I don't need to worry about sight alignment, I can't compensate for time lost during press-out.

    I found it is imperative to change target height and distances, even if by not much, when practicing with dot. Multiple reps at the same target create a false sense of proficiency with dot - one learns how to present it fast on given target, but if target is moved, a fishing for dot begins again, as slight change in pistol presentation/ angulation makes me lose that dot.
    If you are good at your presentation there is no need to correct anything. The sight or dot will appear in front of you when you reach full extension. Sounds like more time needs to be devoted to practicing your draw.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    The sight or dot will appear in front of you when you reach full extension.
    I want to finish my trigger pull when I reach full extension. I can do that with irons (well, at least, sometimes). With dot, I only see it when I am at/near full extension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Sounds like more time needs to be devoted to practicing your draw.
    Aren't we all?

    I was trying to point a difference between grooving your draw for a particular target - which, in my personal experience, is very easy to get into with dot - vs. having a consistent presentation regardless of distance to target and its height.

  6. #46
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    It's been mentioned before, but worth repeating again I think. When one gets older the eye's ability to focus up close, or quickly change focus, deteriorates significantly. A dot seems to help with this quite a bit. Even if your grip and presentation isn't perfect, it's not that hard to quickly find the dot, assuming you can see the front sight through the lens.

    My actual experience with dots on handguns is limited to the one I used to use for IPSC years ago (I have 3 T1's on AR's). I'm going to send a glock slide and an RMR to Bowie, and have it and his backup sights installed. It seems like that should work well.

    At close range it probably doesn't matter most of the time.
    Last edited by bmg; 10-29-10 at 18:48.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmg View Post
    It's been mentioned before, but worth repeating again I think. When one gets older the eye's ability to focus up close, or quickly change focus, deteriorates significantly. A dot seems to help with this quite a bit. Even if your grip and presentation isn't perfect, it's not that hard to quickly find the dot, assuming you can see the front sight through the lens.

    My actual experience with dots on handguns is limited to the one I used to use for IPSC years ago (I have 3 T1's on AR's). I'm going to send a glock slide and an RMR to Bowie, and have it and his backup sights installed. It seems like that should work well.

    At close range it probably doesn't matter most of the time.
    bmg, IM sent.

    My experience with red dots on handguns is positive so far, but there is a learning curve involved and the (financial) barrier to entry is substantial.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Where do you guys get the mounts from the RMR for your handguns. Is there any for 1911's
    Pat
    Gotta have the slide milled.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    Gotta have the slide milled.
    I'm sure they offer dovetail mounts, but they are awful. They ride too high to get a good sight picture reliably with your natural point of aim. So before you try to find some way out of it Littlelebowski nailed it.

  10. #50
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    Neither a tactical nor a competitive expert here... Hell I dont even have an RDS mounted on a gun yet so take this with a grain of salt.

    I played with the RMR both LED and dual and the Deltapoint for a while today thanks to the patience of some sales people at my local credit card melting spot.

    For those of us with aging eyes, yes a red dot even on a handgun will increase our accuracy. Much less wear and tear on the eyes with the target and dot being on the same focal plane. Hard for us geezers to be accurate when we cant see the target or the sights.

    Only having played with the micro dots for a short time it was very evident that there will be a learning curve in adapting to the dot. If your presentation is not flat in front of your dominant eye there will be a lot of fishing for the dot. My presentation stroke is far from perfect, I know, but I had a hard time picking up the dot. Nothing that a LOT of practice couldnt solve. I am also sure that the same will happen during recoil.

    As for mounting options, the Deltapoint comes with a number of adapters that would let you at least try to see if you can make the dot thing work. In the end I believe that the best solution is to have the slide milled.

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