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Thread: Registered SBR lowers

  1. #41
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    Lots of anecdotes that contribute to the confusion. Some of the NFA stuff is regulation rather than legislation, therefore might change from Director to Director, Branch Chief to Branch Chief, even examiner to examiner.

    Some people have written that they haven't engraved, or haven't filled in Box 4, and had no problem. Hard to know if they just slipped through or got an examiner who didn't care about engraving, but attached below is an official answer to that question.

    As to actually engraving if you DO put name/city in Box 4, I'm skeptical that an ATF agent will ever ask me to show him my paperwork, let alone my engraving.
    Last edited by Hmac; 11-10-10 at 07:25.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmac View Post
    ...
    As to actually engraving if you DO put name/city in Box 4, I'm skeptical that an ATF agent will ever ask me to show him my paperwork, let alone my engraving.
    That depends on just how badly they want to hang you. Personally, much like with criminals, I'd rather not count on their mercy as my self defense strategy.

    I have discussed the issues raised in this thread with at least two ATF examiners over the last couple of years. They were in complete agreement with what Todd has been saying. An SBR is an SBR because it has a short barrel, without a short barrel it isn't a SBR. A machine gun lower is a machine gun lower all by itself but a SBR lower is just a lower by itself. And I have a copy of the letter where the ATF gives the written opinion that you can put a 16" or longer barrel on a SBR and take it out of state without having to notify them of the transport since it's no longer an SBR.
    Last edited by GPalmer; 11-10-10 at 10:07.

  3. #43
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    According to BATFE, an SBR maintains its status as an SBR as long as the short barrel is attached to the lower or the owner/maker/manufacturer "retains control" over the components that make it an SBR. So you can take the barrel or upper off of the lower and it remains subject to all NFA requirements. Sell or destroy the upper or lower, and it looks like the lower is no longer subject to the NFA.

    According to a BATFE opinion letter, you can swap out a short upper with a 16in upper and take it across state lines without notifying the BATFE if you leave the short upper behind. However, BATFE says that if you "retain control" over the short barrelled upper, the SBR retains its status as an SBR and you have to notify BATFE if you take it to another state. See BATFE FAQ. As always, check your local laws. So you should be fine as long as you don't take them both with you.

    Byzantine and often self-contradictory regulations are a perfect example of why giving agencies expansive power to make regulations interpreting poorly drafted laws can create a chilling effect on commerce. How many companies were selling "SBR" lowers without any knowledge that what they were doing potentially created NFA violations? Now apparently they can't. There is ultimately no way you can get a straight answer as to what the law is when the agency can change its regulations at any given time. A perfect example is whether the upper or lower receiver is a firearm. BATFE classifies the AR-15 lower as the firearm, but the upper is the firearm for the FAL, FNC, and the SCAR. Until 2008, the FNC lower was the receiver; BATFE reclassified the upper as the receiver that year.
    Last edited by TriumphRat675; 11-10-10 at 16:08. Reason: Correct error.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPalmer View Post
    That depends on just how badly they want to hang you. Personally, much like with criminals, I'd rather not count on their mercy as my self defense strategy.
    I think it depends on whether or not an owner of an SBR, or any other firearm for that matter, would ever, ever meet a real-live ATF agent in person (non-FFL licensee, of course). I'm sure it might be more likely in some locations (southern border, for example), but I just don't envision ATF agents prowling the country looking for NFA violations. Likewise, unless it's a state that by state law requires NFA registration and assuming they're legal in that state, I don't see local law enforcement paying any attention to SBRs either, even if the individual officer happens to know what one is.

  5. #45
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    If one approaches this from a rational and logical standpoint then it is a non-issue. We already know that if you take an SBR and then add a 16" upper is no longer an SBR.

    So if you decided to drive from Arizona to Colorado for example and the short upper is located at home in a safe and you were to be stopped for speeding how is anyone going to know its status?

    For that matter unless you give them consent to search your vehicle how will they know it's in there?

    If you are attending some type of course or training I highly doubt there will be someone checking your weapons at the range. If they do then I probably wouldn't want to shoot there.

    Your point about the uppers/ lowers and FAL's (AFAIK) has to do with the fact that the uppers are serial numbered on those weapons. And the serial numbered item is the firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriumphRat675 View Post
    According to BATFE, an SBR maintains its status as an SBR as long as the short barrel is attached to the lower or the owner/maker/manufacturer "retains control" over the components that make it an SBR. So you can take the barrel or upper off of the lower and it remains subject to all NFA requirements. Sell or destroy the upper or lower, and it looks like the lower is no longer subject to the NFA.

    To correct a misapprehension I had until 5 minutes ago, apparently you can't simply swap the short barrelled upper of an SBR with a 16 inch barrelled upper and take it across state lines. BATFE says that if you "retain control" over the short barrelled upper, the SBR retains its status as an SBR and you have to notify BATFE if you take it to another state. . See BATFE FAQ. As always, check your local laws.

    These Byzantine and often self-contradictory regulations are a perfect example of why giving agencies expansive power to make regulations interpreting poorly drafted laws can create a chilling effect on commerce. How many companies were selling "SBR" lowers without any knowledge that what they were doing potentially created NFA violations? Now apparently they can't. There is ultimately no way you can get a straight answer as to what the law is when the agency can change its regulations at any given time. A perfect example is whether the upper or lower receiver is a firearm. BATFE classifies the AR-15 lower as the firearm, but the upper is the firearm for the FAL, FNC, and the SCAR. Until 2008, the FNC lower was the receiver; BATFE reclassified the upper as the receiver that year.



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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    If one approaches this from a rational and logical standpoint then it is a non-issue.
    I agree that from a practical standpoint this - like most of the NFA trust and other NFA issues that get re-hashed ad nauseum - is not realistically probably ever going to be relevant. It is very hard to believe that there would be a successful or even an attempted prosecution based on this. I would completely agree with you if BATFE approached regulation and enforcement logically and rationally. From what I know, they often don't. For this reason, and because a technical violation of the law is still a violation of the law, I wouldn't call it a non-issue. Since compliance is easy, you can avoid the issue entirely by complying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Your point about the uppers/ lowers and FAL's (AFAIK) has to do with the fact that the uppers are serial numbered on those weapons. And the serial numbered item is the firearm.
    Yes and no. The receiver has to have a serial number, but the fact that a part is serial numbered doesn't make it the receiver. I'm not sure which receiver, upper or lower, of an FNC originally had the serial number on it, but BATFE changed their mind about which part is actually the firearm. Go to the BATFE website and search for "FNC receiver." It's ATF Ruling 2008-1 (which if you read it is actually a victory for rational, logical thinking and the owners of registered FNC autosears).

    That ruling quotes 27 CRF 478.11, which defines a firearm and firearm receiver as follows:

    Firearm. Any weapon...which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive [or] the frame or receiver of any such weapon...
    Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.


    Under this definition, either the upper or lower receiver of an AR-15 can be considered the "receiver" and a "firearm." Which one is apparently is up to BATFE fiat.

  7. #47
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    I understand. But, according to BATFE if you remove the upper (shorty) and add a 16" upper then it is no longer an SBR. If the short upper isn't present when you are traveling or whatever then how is it an issue? Unless I am missing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriumphRat675 View Post
    I agree that from a practical standpoint this - like most of the NFA trust and other NFA issues that get re-hashed ad nauseum - is not realistically probably ever going to be relevant. It is very hard to believe that there would be a successful or even an attempted prosecution based on this. I would completely agree with you if BATFE approached regulation and enforcement logically and rationally. From what I know, they often don't. For this reason, and because a technical violation of the law is still a violation of the law, I wouldn't call it a non-issue. Since compliance is easy, you can avoid the issue entirely by complying.



    Yes and no. The receiver has to have a serial number, but the fact that a part is serial numbered doesn't make it the receiver. I'm not sure which receiver, upper or lower, of an FNC originally had the serial number on it, but BATFE changed their mind about which part is actually the firearm. Go to the BATFE website and search for "FNC receiver." It's ATF Ruling 2008-1 (which if you read it is actually a victory for rational, logical thinking and the owners of registered FNC autosears).

    That ruling quotes 27 CRF 478.11, which defines a firearm and firearm receiver as follows:

    Firearm. Any weapon...which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive [or] the frame or receiver of any such weapon...
    Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.


    Under this definition, either the upper or lower receiver of an AR-15 can be considered the "receiver" and a "firearm." Which one is apparently is up to BATFE fiat.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

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  8. #48
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    It depends on what BATFE means by "retains control." If they mean "own" it, you could be in trouble. If they mean "have immediate access to," and you left the short upper at home, you wouldn't be. That's a valid question and one I don't know the answer to off the top of my head. "Control" can mean different things in different legal contexts, and since I'm taking the "retains control" language from an online BATFE FAQ and not a written opinion, regulation or statute, I wouldn't want to speculate on their meaning. I'm in favor of avoiding even remote risks when doing so is easy - so to me filling out the form to take a registered SBR across state lines, even if it temporarily has a 16in+ upper on it, seems worthwhile. Realistically, if you have an SBR you almost certainly have or have access to a non-registered lower - so just avoid the problem entirely by taking it instead.

    Bottom line is you are right that there is a 99.9% chance this discussion is a mental exercise instead of something to seriously worry about.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriumphRat675 View Post
    According to BATFE, an SBR maintains its status as an SBR as long as the short barrel is attached to the lower or the owner/maker/manufacturer "retains control" over the components that make it an SBR. So you can take the barrel or upper off of the lower and it remains subject to all NFA requirements. Sell or destroy the upper or lower, and it looks like the lower is no longer subject to the NFA.

    To correct a misapprehension I had until 5 minutes ago, apparently you can't simply swap the short barrelled upper of an SBR with a 16 inch barrelled upper and take it across state lines. BATFE says that if you "retain control" over the short barrelled upper, the SBR retains its status as an SBR and you have to notify BATFE if you take it to another state. . See BATFE FAQ. As always, check your local laws.

    These Byzantine and often self-contradictory regulations are a perfect example of why giving agencies expansive power to make regulations interpreting poorly drafted laws can create a chilling effect on commerce. How many companies were selling "SBR" lowers without any knowledge that what they were doing potentially created NFA violations? Now apparently they can't. There is ultimately no way you can get a straight answer as to what the law is when the agency can change its regulations at any given time. A perfect example is whether the upper or lower receiver is a firearm. BATFE classifies the AR-15 lower as the firearm, but the upper is the firearm for the FAL, FNC, and the SCAR. Until 2008, the FNC lower was the receiver; BATFE reclassified the upper as the receiver that year.
    Just what is the source of these statements? You really don't make that clear other than claiming that is the BATFE's position. Here's the letter from the Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch which states that a SBR with a 16 is perfectly legal to transport across state lines without notifying them.




  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPalmer View Post
    Just what is the source of these statements?
    My source was the BATFE FAQ that I linked to, which says that if you "retain control" over the short upper, you can't move the SBR across state lines without approval even if it has a 16in upper on it. I hadn't researched that issue or seen your letter, and wasn't sure what ATF meant by "retain control." Your letter clears that up, and I will edit my original post to make it correct.

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