Tired of all the talk about mil spec.

[Jay Cunningham]

The phrase "Drink the Kool-Aide" indicates that one blindly embraces a particular philosophy or perspective, completely buys into an idea or system, whether good or bad, or goes along with what a crowd desires.

I don't think the above definition fits the guys on this forum who present the facts as to what "mil-spec" means and who meets that requirement with thie rifles.

If you are emotionally invested in your particular AR rifle then you are probably going to get your feathers ruffled on this forum.

BTW, what are "sheepish thoughts"?

[18b2v]

The phrase "Drink the Kool-Aide" indicates that one blindly embraces a particular philosophy or perspective, completely buys into an idea or system, whether good or bad, or goes along with what a crowd desires.

I don't think the above definition fits the guys on this forum who present the facts as to what "mil-spec" means and who meets that requirement with thie rifles.

If you are emotionally invested in your particular AR rifle then you are probably going to get your feathers ruffled on this forum.

BTW, what are "sheepish thoughts"?

Sheepish thoughts I used pretty much like drinking the Kool aide. It is not having a mind of your own and just following the crowd. I am not set on any one particular make of ar so I am not worried about my feathers being ruffled. I have seen falures and breackage in every weapons systems we have used, but telling someone that rra and others are not as good because it is not mil spec just doesn't fly in my book. Now giving examples of how systems fail and reasons why is a different story. People putting Mil-spec on such a high pedestal is what irritates me. I have seen vast improvements with RRA, LMT, and many others while I have seen a decline in quality in Colt. Basicly it comes down to an idividule evaluating thier needs and the products on hand. If a RRA,Bushmaster,CMT, LMT meets or exceeds thier needs or expectations don't trash it because it is not Mil- spec. If you truly do not have first hand experience with these then you should not open your mouth and let people that have experienced falures and breakages give examples, then let the person decide and leave it at that. I have seen a fair amount of knowledgeable people on this site give great feedback but i have seen a lot of people who only know what they hear talk out thier arse. Mil-spec is not the end all standard and don't judge byjust that. Ok my rant is over I think I got my point across and people can accept it or not. It will not affect me staying in the community as I feel there are a lot of experienced people here and we can all learn from each other. As this is my opinion people can take it or leave it. I will back up all my posts with my experiences first hand and facts of what I have experienced and all I ask is the same from everyone else. I have enjoyed this conversation and look forward to more of them.

[18b2v]

Im recently retired military so I know that mil-spec isnt always best. But at least it is some spec. Im not being a jerk but what spec does your RRA follow? As for doing the research, I have. Im a dealer for every major AR manufacturer out there and can order anything that is available on the market for my customers. I normally push LMT as I feel that is the best value available in terms of price and quality and feel confident in the product. I could sell a comparable RRA for the same money and RRA has a higher profit margin than does LMT but I sell the product that is better.

Well RRA and many others such as ed brown, sig, glock follow thier own specs. That is not saying it is inferior to Beretta, Colt, springfield, Rock Island because these are Mil-spec. Maybe I have been lucky with the RRA, Stag, that I have used excessivly and not so lucky with the colts I have used. I think everyone puts out lemons and that is usually what you hear about. I would not hessitate to reccomend LMT, Stag, and RRA to anyone based on my experience with these brands.

[Dport]

Some spec is better than no spec at all. Which is what the majority of the manufacturers follow. It's whatever they want to do, based mainly, I suppose, on their production costs. What lowers their production costs and increases their profit margin, while being affordable enough to entice as many customers as possible? It's business 101.

Are there manufacturers who produce things better than mil spec? Yep. And they are recognized here. They often do not seek to put out a lot of them, compared to some of the big name AR makers, and they generally cost more.

[Shihan]

Ok so since in your oppinion mil-spec dosent mean squat. Which manufacturers exceed mil-spec in terms of quality of components and testing of components. Please list in detail.

[Robb Jensen]

Will your RRA run?, maybe, maybe not. Can it be made to run? Sure.
If you're going to run an AR really hard I'd suggest a much more 'mil-spec' rifle than an RRA. If it's to impress your brother-in-law during the holidays your RRA will do just fine.

The military has specifications because they would like to maintain a known level of quality. We here at M4C use 'mil-spec' as a guideline of a minimum level of acceptable quality. It's very much like the SAE has standards for the quality of bolts (i.e. grade 8 bolts).

Somethings I use on my own ARs aren't mil-spec but I'm wise enough to know if it's a quality part or not.

Some parts I use aren't technically mil-spec but do exceed the quality being addressed by the mil-spec. (i.e. my VLTOR MUR upper receiver)

[rob_s]

It sounds as though what's really going on here is that you own an RRA and are upset that it doesn't have as many little Xs in it's column as some of the others. If that is in fact the case, why not take your own advice and be happy with what you bought and not worry about what others think?

I do think you're missing the point of the chart though, and I think you may be misunderstanding why people care so much about milspec in this case.

My business is construction. I have been involved in the construction of schools, condos, single-family homes, libraries, YMCA, etc. No matter what we build we are required by law to conform to the building code in our area. The code is a baseline. We can build to higher standards, but we have to at least build to the code.

If you were buying a house, would you buy the one that you know at least conformed to the building code, or the one from somebody that told you "oh, the code? Yeah the code is shit, the way I built it is much better"?

Finally, so what if someone "sheepishly" buys a Colt? Many times in life people don't have the time or the interest in finding out all the details of why a thing is the way it is, they just want to know that they bought the best quality they could find. Colt is an excellent way to do that.

I think that many people here would agree that there are options that exceed a 6920. Those may include the various Noveske offerings, the Larue, the Vltor, the DD, etc. Also, if you follow along enough, you'll see that many times we recommend LMT over Colt mostly because of price issues.

[rob_s]

re: "milspec" in general, I would agree with you. I worked for a few years in a gun/surplus store and we had quite a bit of "milspec" surplus gear come through. We also stocked quite a bit of commercial camping, hiking, and survival gear and in many cases the commercial equipment was lighter, stronger, better quality, and tougher.

[mmike87]

"Milspec" offers a known, published standard by which something is made and the materials used to make it. When you purchase a true Milspec item, you can research these facts. If you do not like the result, you can choose a different item that better suits your needs.

When you a rifle from Brand X, that is not even close to Milspec, it's harder to know how it's assembled or what it's made of. How many threads have we all read where people are arguing over that type of steel Brand X's barrels are made of? Half the time the company can't even answer the question - you'll get several different answers from different CS people.

Any rifle that is accurate and reliable long-term is by my definition a good rifle. Milspec is just a tool IMO to help guide people towards something that is more likely to be durable and reliable long term. It's not a sure thing by any means.

[C4IGrant]

What does his MOS have to do with the price of Iron in China?

Nothing actually. I found very few to any Military guys know a lot about what makes a quality part and what doesn't. Very few of them are even basic armorers.



C4