Role of Federal Tactical Precision buckshot for LEO use?

[basko]

Hey all,

I mainly just lurk here, but I've not found much data or opinion on the Tactical precision version of federal tactical (#LE 13300PR). I want to ask a few questions in hopes of getting some opinions on this load. I'm not very well versed in current shotgun load performance, but it looks like we may be instituting buckshot and/or slugs again, so I want to do some research. I'll have some input on the load we choose, so I don't want to swag anything.

Clearly, the LE133 is an excellent, tight shooting load well suited for LEO work. That being said, I'm curious what the practical role is for the tactical precision load? The LE133 penetrates barriers well at close range as demonstrated in this data book.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf

So it would seem that LE133 00PR would really shine when defeating barriers at greater distances. I'm thinking of armed robbers in/around cars or barricaded shooters using heavy cover (situations that tend to cause problems for 5.56 patrol rifles). However, in those situations it would seem brenneke slugs would be even better.

On the converse, even for regular use, I could see that because the standard LE 133 00 is such a tight shooting load anyway, the LE 133 00PR may have some real advantages of hitting "like a slug with the impact of buckshot" as federal puts it. I imagine hitting a limb, or at an oblique angle with the precision round still intact, only to have the buckshot come into play in a super tight group, would be quite an impact. Since the tight shooting of the regular LE 133 mitigates most of the spread, doesn't the LE 13300PR take even more of the pattern "guesswork" out of it?

I'm just throwing out some ideas. I'd be curious to hear what your opinions are. Please feel free to educate me here. Like I said I'm behind the curve on the latest shotgun loads.

[tpd223]

I'd have to look up the stock numbers, but here we use the low recoil Flightcontrol OO buckshot and the low recoil Truball Foster style slugs.

The slugs are very accurate from our Mossberg 500/590s, and they fragment well in gel.

The OO buck gives very tight patterns, normally a volley ball sized pattern at the 25 yard line. This load gives a no-BS gunfight capability out to 40 to 50 yards in most of the guns I have tested.

I'm not so sure about the pseudo-slug, at very close range hits on meat (observed deer hunting experience here) the regular Flightcontrol stuff can fail to deploy the pellets from the wad and blow through in one big wadcutter style mass, and this is from a load designed to deploy the pellets.
The "slug" load is in theory a giant shotgun launched Glaser Safety Slug, but I'd have to see more data and testing, and maybe a few deer shot, before I would trust the concept to work on duty.


What kind of shotguns are you guys going to be using? Pump or semi-auto?

Here, if I could pull it off, we would stick to the low recoil Flightcontrol and go with full power Brenneke slugs.

IMHO when you want a slug (except for certain circumstances) you want a slug that digs. The Brenneke, as stated by a friend goes ".72 in, .72 out, through a bear, buck or Buick".

[basko]

Good info and thanks for the reply.

We'll be using pumps.

As it stands now, I think the LE 133 00 (which is the 8 shot, low recoil, flight control) and the Brenneke THD round for slugs would be my recommendation.

The "pseudo slug" has me intrigued though, which is the reason for the post. I hadn't thought of it as a giant glaser safety slug.

[DocGKR]

A decade ago, Chris Billings of Choke™ invented both a shot spread reducing and a shot spread eliminating wad design, in a higher velocity loading for semi-auto shotguns and a lower velocity loading for pump action shotguns. Both Federal and Hornady licensed the non-bonded Choke shot spread reducing design (ie. Flight Control and TAP).

The shot spread eliminated wad design was the Choke™ #00 Buckshot Precision Bonded load, that offered an ideal alternative to Shotgun Slugs for those agencies which prohibited slug use. In addition, the Choke™ #00 Buckshot Precision Bonded round was an ideal load for CQB and entry use where precise accurate shots were required. A version was also produced using frangible pellets that disintegrated on steel. While 12 gauge Buckshot offers both outstanding close range incapacitation potential and increased hit potential against moving targets at close range (usually no more than 15 to 25 yards), its short effective range, imprecise accuracy, and downrange hazard to bystanders from stray pellets can be significant limitations in some situations. Several West Coast LE agencies, including one large agency, issued the Choke Precision Bonded Buckshot loads with great success. Louis Awerbuck used to hit bowling pins out past 100 yards using the Choke bonded buckshot. You might wish to read: Roberts GK, Lazzarini D, Pomerleau P: "Wounding Effects of Choke™ 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot Loads Intended for Law Enforcement Duty Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin". AFTE Journal. 34(3):287-288, Summer 2002

Unfortunately, when Federal took over production of the Precision load, accuracy was dramatically reduced--like it was hard to hit a B27 at 25 yards. As a result, most LE agencies here dropped the Federal version of the bonded buckshot and ended up going with slugs or Flight Control loads... I understand that Choke is once again going to be producing the Precision bonded load.

FWIW, #1 buckshot has been shown to offer more optimal incapacitation potential than #00 buckshot, unfortunately, to date their are few loads available and no low recoil, shot spread reducing "tactical" loads--although there are rumors that this is about to change...

[basko]

Great reply Doc. Thank you.

Where could I lay my hands on a copy of that article? Google only leads me back to this thread.

I did have a recommendation from a LEO over on the other forum who says they are currently getting great accuracy from this round and have chosen it over the regular flight control load. Of course I'll get some T&E and determine current offering's accuracy is acceptable. Is Choke going to be producing that for Federal or are we looking at an entirely different product?

I'm really curious if the precision round would be good for general patrol work, instead of the regular flight control load.

I still plan to recommend brenneke's regardless of which buckshot round we ultimately decide on.

Thanks for the help. Seriously.

[Exiledviking]

The shot spread eliminated wad design was the Choke™ #00 Buckshot Precision Bonded load, that offered an ideal alternative to Shotgun Slugs for those agencies which prohibited slug use. In addition, the Choke™ #00 Buckshot Precision Bonded round was an ideal load for CQB and entry use where precise accurate shots were required.

I remember reading somewhere that this load is not recommended for shotguns that have had the VangComp treatment to the barrel. Is that correct?

[Old_Painless]

FWIW, #1 buckshot has been shown to offer more optimal incapacitation potential than #00 buckshot, unfortunately, to date their are few loads available and no low recoil, shot spread reducing "tactical" loads--although there are rumors that this is about to change...

Just FYI, Doc. Last year at the SHOT Show, I spoke with a representative from ATK, named Price about the desire for a good #1 buck load by Federal with the Flight Control Wad.

He was very knowledgable about the FBI standards, and agreed with me that such a load would be "optimal".

However, he explained that their production was driven by "demand", and that the law enforcement community was requesting 00 buck, and no one was asking for #1 buck.

I explained that those in the shooting community would love to see such a load available, and would buy it if they loaded it. But he said there is no demand, so they will not load it at this time.

They don't load it because there is "no demand", but we can't demand it because they don't load it. My head hurts.

[DocGKR]

Hopefully things will change in the near future...

[Abraxas]

Just FYI, Doc. Last year at the SHOT Show, I spoke with a representative from ATK, named Price about the desire for a good #1 buck load by Federal with the Flight Control Wad.

He was very knowledgable about the FBI standards, and agreed with me that such a load would be "optimal".

However, he explained that their production was driven by "demand", and that the law enforcement community was requesting 00 buck, and no one was asking for #1 buck.

I explained that those in the shooting community would love to see such a load available, and would buy it if they loaded it. But he said there is no demand, so they will not load it at this time.

They don't load it because there is "no demand", but we can't demand it because they don't load it. My head hurts.

One has to wonder if this is not one of the times that, it is not demanded because it is not made.

[Submariner]

According to Old_Painless on TOS, Federal will be marketing this:

I attended the SHOT Show this year and spoke to Hal at the ATK booth. These are the folks that design and manufacture ammunition for law enforcement and the military.

As I walked up to the booth I started to speak with another Rep and asked about whether they were ever going to sell #1 buck in the FCW shell. He said that they were not, as far as he knew.

Then Hal walked up and said, "Didn't you and I talk about this last year?" I said that we had. He then said, "Well, I just learned that we are indeed going to produce a #1 buckshot load with the Flight Control Wad. We didn't think there would be a market for it, but we've had a lot of requests, so we are going to make some and see how it sells."

I told him, "There can't be a market if there is no product available." He grinned and said, "That's what I told them. I guess we will both see."

So keep your eyes peeled. We are finally going to get the best buckshot in the best wad.