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Thread: 'Just' irons?

  1. #31
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    A RDS is an awesome advantage.

    Learning to use iron sights first is not BS it is practical and I would argue necessary. Just like the fire direction guys need to know how to do their job with out their computers and we all need to know how to use and carry a compass in case the GPS shits the bed or the trees are too thick to get a clear signal.

    I have several corded phones in my house because the cordless will not work when the power goes out. They are also cheaper, easy to use and more reliable.

    I would hope the same Army issuing a million Aimpoints teaches soldiers to use their irons first. It sounds like the folks choosing to use irons only are making informed decisions. RDS, GPS, cell phones and computers are great but we did just fine with out them and some people choose not to use them.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    Not only do I run "just irons" on my home D bean. I run irons only on every AR I have... like 5 or six variants.

    I haven't yet trained under any of the instructors who have made wink wink arrangements to tell the class they NEED to have an aim dot.. even if it means selling a kidney or whoring out his wife, etc. I won't train with instructors who are paid to shill crap.
    The first official use of Red Dot type sights by the US military was on the Son Tay raid. When preparing for the raid they discovered how much quiker and better hits the sights allowed them to better, faster hits under combat situations, including low light, moving targets, shooting while moving, etc.

    These types of sights were subsequently adopted by the most elite military units in the country for the same reasons, and the Army as a whole has since bought hundreds of thousands of them.

    I have many longarms that I don't have these sights on--like AKs, an M1 Carbine, my shotguns, etc. These are not my frontline defense guns and I find them more fun to shoot in a clean, original configuration and work with open sights.

    If you don't personally like these sights, that's fine.

    If you want to keep your gun slick, that's fine as well.

    But don't try to pretend that these sights don't represent an enormous force multiplier for home defense or a two-way range.

  3. #33
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    I never said to not learn to use iron sights, only that learning them first is BS.
    I have yet to see a single advantage to learning to shoot with iron sights first.
    Shooting accurately is all about manipulating the trigger with out disturbing sight alignment/picture. What kind of sights they are has nothing to do with it.
    Not having to worry about the visual gymnastics of iron sights allows the student to concentrate on proper trigger manipulation, after you have that down, the rest is cake.

    It sounds more like people choosing irons are making more assumptions and bad TTP's then informed decisions.

    Yea we did fine w/o a lot of stuff, we also got on line and shot at each other with muzzle loaders, I don't see anyone advocating that anymore though. Some of you guys need to take a look at the calendar.

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  4. #34
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    I've read some pretty valid points here. I'm thinking I've got another RDS in my future.

    I also agree with Bob about attention to detail as it pertains to your weaponry.

    1*

  5. #35
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    I did the whole "Grass Roots Badass" thing a few years ago when I built my M4 with an A2 upper and put Trijicon sights in it. The whole "master irons" and "nothing to fail" mentality is a crock when your going against people with optics. For me, the realization happened on a one-way range in the form of a "tactical" rifle match where I was beaten in speed and accuracy by guys running optics. (Mind you, I didn't finish last and actually beat some of the guys running optics) But if that were instead a two-way range, they're alive, I'm dead. By all means, you need to learn to use the irons. But once you know how they work, move on. Scopes and Dots have limitations too, and they won't solve all your problems, but they beat irons every time. (Shooters being equal).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    Not only do I run "just irons" on my home D bean. I run irons only on every AR I have... like 5 or six variants.

    I haven't yet trained under any of the instructors who have made wink wink arrangements to tell the class they NEED to have an aim dot.. even if it means selling a kidney or whoring out his wife, etc. I won't train with instructors who are paid to shill crap.

    Vickers advises everyone to have a RDS and you are basically a MORON for not having one (on a fighting weapon).

    Oh and no, he is not paid in any way by Aimpoint, EOTech or Trijicon.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 11-22-10 at 09:55.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Yes some people with astigmatism or other eye conditions may have a problem with a red dot. Generally more so with an EoTech due to the type of technology. The dot on the Aimpoint is generally a better option for these people.
    Interesting. I have an astigmatism and find the exact opposite to be true.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    I never said to not learn to use iron sights, only that learning them first is BS.
    I have yet to see a single advantage to learning to shoot with iron sights first.
    Shooting accurately is all about manipulating the trigger with out disturbing sight alignment/picture. What kind of sights they are has nothing to do with it.
    Not having to worry about the visual gymnastics of iron sights allows the student to concentrate on proper trigger manipulation, after you have that down, the rest is cake.
    God I'm glad to see someone else say this.
    (not to mention everything, and I do mean everything, else you've said in this thread)

  9. #39
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    "just irons" is something that is very fresh in my mind right now. one week ago today I was starting TD1 of a three-day Randy Cain Carbine 1 course which I took with all iron sights for an article in SWAT magazine (so excuse me if I don't entirely scoop myself ). I can say without question that the iron sights not only made it harder for me to get hits at distance, but also slowed me down significantly, and even more so in the dark. I had to concentrate much harder on the fundamentals in order to get my hits at 200 yards, and even then I had more of a pattern than a group.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Combat is something that you just don't make compromises with. Adding up all the little incremental advantages in training and equipment can mean all the difference between life and death.
    How many of us here are actually taking our rifles to combat????

    Probably 5% or less, so with that in mind....get an Aimpoint. Especially a home defense rifle. Can you see the irons in the dark????

    Obvious advantage with a red dot optic. Go with the micro H-1 or T-1and you will not be disappointed. Cost about $600, but worth every penny for close-ups.

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