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Thread: 'Just' irons?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Yes some people with astigmatism or other eye conditions may have a problem with a red dot. Generally more so with an EoTech due to the type of technology. The dot on the Aimpoint is generally a better option for these people.
    I have a mild astigmatism only about 10 degrees, and I have actually find the reverse of this to be the case. I have both EOTechs and Aimpoints, and I have found the smaller 1MOA EOTech dot blooms much less than the 2 or 4 MOA Aimpoint dots. I can shoot the EOtech more precisely at distance due to the smaller dot, and faster at close range due to the circle than the Aimpoint T1 with or without glasses/contacts.

    Cameron

  2. #42
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    RDSs are a requirement for me and as many have stated, have way more advantages to personal survival than the Irons ever can. Having said that, it is still prudent to be proficient with the Irons in case your RDS goes tits up, for any reason. Irons only for any serious social purposes? Hell no.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    I never said to not learn to use iron sights, only that learning them first is BS.
    I have yet to see a single advantage to learning to shoot with iron sights first.
    Shooting accurately is all about manipulating the trigger with out disturbing sight alignment/picture. What kind of sights they are has nothing to do with it.
    Not having to worry about the visual gymnastics of iron sights allows the student to concentrate on proper trigger manipulation, after you have that down, the rest is cake.

    Bob
    Wrong....you forgot position and biomechanic involvment in excellent marksmanship. Everyone should learn with irons and the analog way of doing things and work up. A red dot is a snap to a trained marksman. Yeah...go shoot that silhouette at 50M. I'm sorry but that is a joke to someone that is an expert marksman. Speed is lost, but much is gained that you are over-looking.

    Dry-firing, establishment of NPOA and trigger control is essential to be a great marksman. The only way to acquire this is through dry-firing and iron sight shooting. NPOA becomes a reflex and cannot be taught well using red dots.

    So, I whole-heartedly disagree with folks either too ignorant or lazy to learn fundamental marksmanship skills. I can pick up any rifle on earth and shoot it well. Why???? Because I learned the fundamentals of marksmanship and that did not involve optics. I can take a person well trained in analog and get them shooting accurately with an Aimpoint/ACOG in minutes, not so the other way around. They understand the fundamentals.

    Shooting irons also allows one to appreciate dope more precisely. Irons can be used effectively out to 6-800M. Don't BS b/c I routinely shoot 1000 YD with an M14 and well at that. Red dots are too inaccurate unless you are closer than 200M.

    Learn to shoot the irons and then move on. Otherwise, when your optics fail you will be a liablility to those depending on you, either the family you are trying to defend or your cadre around you.

    The issue is that learning the fundamentals of marksmanship is labor intensive. You have to dry-fire to learn trigger control and establish a natural point of aim. Consistent cheek-weld is also necesaary. These fundamentals are not possible to work out with a red dot b/c the red dot is not precise enough to allow target feedback to what one is doing incorrectly.

    I never could get myself to a carbine class b/c I found it ridiculous to shoot 1500 rounds at targets 50M away. I won't miss unless I experience a failure or am concussed. I can learn mag changes, gear placement, and failure drills on my own. Don't need to destroy a rifle to do it and doubt I will ever be able to survive an engagement where I shoot that many rounds. All these tactical to practical folks thinking they are going to survive with a 2 man team against an assault in which they dump through 8 mags. Yeah right. The guy you don't see b/c it is impossible to maintain 360 degree security with 2 men is the one that puts you down.

    Just some things to think about. I am sure all the dogmatists will try and poke through my arguements. I could care less, b/c I proved them to be correct for myself.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammonje View Post
    Wrong....you forgot position and biomechanic involvment in excellent marksmanship. Everyone should learn with irons and the analog way of doing things and work up. A red dot is a snap to a trained marksman. Yeah...go shoot that silhouette at 50M. I'm sorry but that is a joke to someone that is an expert marksman. Speed is lost, but much is gained that you are over-looking.

    Dry-firing, establishment of NPOA and trigger control is essential to be a great marksman. The only way to acquire this is through dry-firing and iron sight shooting. NPOA becomes a reflex and cannot be taught well using red dots.

    So, I whole-heartedly disagree with folks either too ignorant or lazy to learn fundamental marksmanship skills. I can pick up any rifle on earth and shoot it well. Why???? Because I learned the fundamentals of marksmanship and that did not involve optics. I can take a person well trained in analog and get them shooting accurately with an Aimpoint/ACOG in minutes, not so the other way around. They understand the fundamentals.

    Shooting irons also allows one to appreciate dope more precisely. Irons can be used effectively out to 6-800M. Don't BS b/c I routinely shoot 1000 YD with an M14 and well at that. Red dots are too inaccurate unless you are closer than 200M.

    Learn to shoot the irons and then move on. Otherwise, when your optics fail you will be a liablility to those depending on you, either the family you are trying to defend or your cadre around you.

    The issue is that learning the fundamentals of marksmanship is labor intensive. You have to dry-fire to learn trigger control and establish a natural point of aim. Consistent cheek-weld is also necesaary. These fundamentals are not possible to work out with a red dot b/c the red dot is not precise enough to allow target feedback to what one is doing incorrectly.

    I never could get myself to a carbine class b/c I found it ridiculous to shoot 1500 rounds at targets 50M away. I won't miss unless I experience a failure or am concussed. I can learn mag changes, gear placement, and failure drills on my own. Don't need to destroy a rifle to do it and doubt I will ever be able to survive an engagement where I shoot that many rounds. All these tactical to practical folks thinking they are going to survive with a 2 man team against an assault in which they dump through 8 mags. Yeah right. The guy you don't see b/c it is impossible to maintain 360 degree security with 2 men is the one that puts you down.

    Just some things to think about. I am sure all the dogmatists will try and poke through my arguements. I could care less, b/c I proved them to be correct for myself.
    your avatar betrays your bias. too bad you couldn't be bothered to get to a class, so you could speak from a position of experience instead of one of ignorance.

    you haven't proved anything, other than you'd prefer to jam your fingers in your ears, scrunch your eyes up tight, and holler "nananananananana" whenever an opinion you disagree with comes along.

    I find it ironic that you're talking about civilian use of firearms in the same post as shooting to 800+ yards with irons sights, and poo-pooing CQB-distance skills.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    I never said to not learn to use iron sights, only that learning them first is BS.
    I have yet to see a single advantage to learning to shoot with iron sights first.
    Shooting accurately is all about manipulating the trigger with out disturbing sight alignment/picture. What kind of sights they are has nothing to do with it.
    Not having to worry about the visual gymnastics of iron sights allows the student to concentrate on proper trigger manipulation, after you have that down, the rest is cake.

    It sounds more like people choosing irons are making more assumptions and bad TTP's then informed decisions.

    Yea we did fine w/o a lot of stuff, we also got on line and shot at each other with muzzle loaders, I don't see anyone advocating that anymore though. Some of you guys need to take a look at the calendar.

    Bob
    Bob,

    I have an eight year old and I've struggled trying to teach him sight alignment and sight picture with the peep sights on his little Savage .22. I have access to a S&W 15-22 and I think putting my M4 on the gun will help him. The RDS or scope gives a new shooter confidence and the ability to concentrate on other fundamentals. I still want him to know how to use his sights but you bring up a good point. I want to avoid the idea that his sights are not important. When he is old enough to drive I want to teach him how to drive a standard too, that may prove difficult. I also believe having confidence in your irons helps when your optics are not available for what ever reason. My serious guns all have optics. I want a gun with irons only for fun and nostalgia.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  6. #46
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    I first came to a RDS about 12 years ago. I was in a class by a guy named "Jim Crews" and he had some sort of RDS on his gun. Back when battery life was in the 10s or 100s of hours.

    I was shooting irons and I also wear glasses. Well, at the time I wore glasses, I have since had IntraLASE Lasik correction. In this class I was shooting pretty well from standing or kneeling positions but from prone positions I was shooting about 12" or 15" low on average (I don't remember the exact amount).

    Mr Crews wanted to find out what my problem was and watched me shoot. He handed me his rifle, with RDS, and from the prone position I had no problems at all. We figured out that in the prone position, I was looking through my glasses at an angle instead of straight through and the light was being bent enough to make me aim 12-15" off when dealing with a 2 position (front and rear) iron sight. The single red dot of his RDS did not have this problem. I believe it was a sort of parallax.

    So I went out and got myself a Trijicon reflex sight (no batteries etc). That worked well enough for me until I learned about Aimpoint and CompM2/ML2, and that the battery life had been improved significantly at which point I traded up.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I find it ironic that you're talking about civilian use of firearms in the same post as shooting to 800+ yards with irons sights, and poo-pooing CQB-distance skills.
    I figured that's how the yellow hat guy would respond. You always did make fun of my avatar. Your issue is you only look to find fault with anyone's position when it differs from yours instead of finding any commonality.

    A rifleman that finds error in learning to shoot analog is just not a competent rifleman. The CQB stuff is OK, boring in about 5 minutes to someone that can handle a rifle. Folks take it way too far as being the only skill necessary. You need both and the long-range shooting is much more difficult to master and requires thought. You have to know dope and environmental factors. Not so with just shooting hundreds of rounds downrange at a 50M target. What bozo can't hit a target at 50M with a red dot??? You still aren't a marksman b/c you won't be able to hit crap at 500M.

    I just think rationally about what threats I actually may face. Someone or 2-3 people breaking in my house or a mugger on the street. I'm covered. The rest is a death sentence. All these carbine class fools either need to join a militia in Montana or join the military. Without support you would not last but a few minutes in combat. It's the guy you don't see that kills you easily. How can you maintain security with 2 people???? You would have to disengage and maneuver to find concealment/cover or die quickly. The scenerios presented are just ridiculous to anyone with a basic knowledge of small unit tactics. The pretense it that you have a unit to depend on in the first place. You need at least to be able to form a wheel/360 degree defensive screen.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammonje View Post
    I figured that's how the yellow hat guy would respond. You always did make fun of my avatar. Your issue is you only look to find fault with anyone's position when it differs from yours instead of finding any commonality.
    I didn't make fun of it, I pointed out that you're a wooden-gun guy, with a wooden-gun mentality. Is that not true?

    A rifleman that finds error in learning to shoot analog is just not a competent rifleman. The CQB stuff is OK, boring in about 5 minutes to someone that can handle a rifle. Folks take it way too far as being the only skill necessary. You need both and the long-range shooting is much more difficult to master and requires thought. You have to know dope and environmental factors. Not so with just shooting hundreds of rounds downrange at a 50M target. What bozo can't hit a target at 50M with a red dot??? You still aren't a marksman b/c you won't be able to hit crap at 500M.
    I'd love for you to come out with all your skills and test yourself. I personally think you won't, not because you disagree with the concept but because you're afraid all of your bravado won't translate to results.

    I also don't see where anyone has said anything about only skills, not further learning distance shooting, etc. What Bob was talking about was initial approach out of the gate, and I happen to agree with him. Your insistence on learning irons first is as outdated as your guns (to "make fun" of your avatar again).

    I just think rationally about what threats I actually may face. Someone or 2-3 people breaking in my house or a mugger on the street. I'm covered. The rest is a death sentence. All these carbine class fools either need to join a militia in Montana or join the military. Without support you would not last but a few minutes in combat. It's the guy you don't see that kills you easily. How can you maintain security with 2 people???? You would have to disengage and maneuver to find concealment/cover or die quickly. The scenerios presented are just ridiculous to anyone with a basic knowledge of small unit tactics. The pretense it that you have a unit to depend on in the first place. You need at least to be able to form a wheel/360 degree defensive screen.
    So which is it? You're engaging at close range, in which case CQB skills are the necessary tools, or you're engaging at distance and accepting your "death sentence"? and what does one who believes the fight, and the legally defendable fight, will take place close range have to do with a military or a militia?

    At this point I don't think you can even cohesively make your own argument as I frankly can't follow your posts or your "logic". What is it that you think you're preparing for by only testing yourself at long range and ignoring the close range? Or is it just your assumption that you'll pick right up on speed loads, tac loads, hold over, shooting on the move, use of cover and concealment, firing from unconventional positions, assessing the intended final resting place of your projectiles vs. what flat paper has taught you is the aiming point, on a moving target, in the dark.... and all with iron sights?

  9. #49
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    In regards to the OP, I think a RDS is the most important upgrade to any gun intended for home defense right behind a flashlight. Without a flashlight you can't identify your target so you can't shoot, and if you've identified a threat you will want to have effective rounds flying to meet them as quickly as possible which is where a RDS shines.

    I think it's silly to neglect a sighting system that is extremely effective at night on a HD rifle. It's also easy to show how much faster a RDS is compared to irons on the same gun. The only real obstacle is the entry price.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    I have a mild astigmatism only about 10 degrees, and I have actually find the reverse of this to be the case. I have both EOTechs and Aimpoints, and I have found the smaller 1MOA EOTech dot blooms much less than the 2 or 4 MOA Aimpoint dots. I can shoot the EOtech more precisely at distance due to the smaller dot, and faster at close range due to the circle than the Aimpoint T1 with or without glasses/contacts.

    Cameron
    I have a friend with an astigmatism and his problem is with EOTechs. I think the upshot is that if you have an astigmatism, try a RDS before you buy it!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammonje View Post
    I never could get myself to a carbine class b/c I found it ridiculous to shoot 1500 rounds at targets 50M away.
    out of curiosity, which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by hammonje View Post
    I have been to two carbine classes with the rifle and she still shoots my 64 gr PP self-defense handloads at 1 MOA or better.

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