Wrong....you forgot position and biomechanic involvment in excellent marksmanship. Everyone should learn with irons and the analog way of doing things and work up. A red dot is a snap to a trained marksman. Yeah...go shoot that silhouette at 50M. I'm sorry but that is a joke to someone that is an expert marksman. Speed is lost, but much is gained that you are over-looking.
WRONG!! see I can play that game also. I never said I forgot any of that, did I? Only that once you master trigger manipulation, the rest is cake. I've been taught and shown, by Expert marksman, does the AMU count in your book? That you can do all the other fundamentals of marksmanship perfectly, but if your jerk/snatch the trigger, you miss, conversely, you can screw up the rest to some degree, but if you properly manipulate the trigger you hit.
Dry-firing, establishment of NPOA and trigger control is essential to be a great marksman. The only way to acquire this is through dry-firing and iron sight shooting. NPOA becomes a reflex and cannot be taught well using red dots.
That's ridiculous, how does what kind of sight you have affect dry firing? As far as natural point of aim, try getting that when your running thru a timed tactical proficiency exercise, wearing body armor a helmet, pro mask, & shooting around and over cover/barricades. Good luck with your NPOA
So, I whole-heartedly disagree with folks either too ignorant or lazy to learn fundamental marksmanship skills. I can pick up any rifle on earth and shoot it well. Why???? Because I learned the fundamentals of marksmanship and that did not involve optics. I can take a person well trained in analog and get them shooting accurately with an Aimpoint/ACOG in minutes, not so the other way around. They understand the fundamentals.
My experience has been different. I disagree with people to ignorant or lazy to get off their ass, outta the prone, and shoot a carbine in a manner that replicates the reality of real world modern combat, not some Walter Mitty fantasy they've created that vindicates their training regimen.
Shooting irons also allows one to appreciate dope more precisely. Irons can be used effectively out to 6-800M. Don't BS b/c I routinely shoot 1000 YD with an M14 and well at that. Red dots are too inaccurate unless you are closer than 200M.
Again that silly. Depending on your RDS of choice, your dot will be 1,2, or 4 MOA, that's smaller then your average front sight on a combat rifle/carbine
Learn to shoot the irons and then move on. Otherwise, when your optics fail you will be a liablility to those depending on you, either the family you are trying to defend or your cadre around you.
Learn to press the trigger properly, otherwise you wont hit anything. Once you've done that, learning irons is easy. There's nothing magical about irons sights, other then fat old bald guys learned on them, so everyone should.
When you cant see your irons, because your in the roll over prone, or on your tip toes shooting thru the only available port in your cover, & taking forever to make a shot, what kinda liability are you?
The issue is that learning the fundamentals of marksmanship is labor intensive. You have to dry-fire to learn trigger control and establish a natural point of aim. Consistent cheek-weld is also necesaary. These fundamentals are not possible to work out with a red dot b/c the red dot is not precise enough to allow target feedback to what one is doing incorrectly.
See my above comments, that's just not the case. Understand why RDS were evaluated and adopted, and where they excel. Or just look at a calendar.
I never could get myself to a carbine class b/c I found it ridiculous to shoot 1500 rounds at targets 50M away. I won't miss unless I experience a failure or am concussed. I can learn mag changes, gear placement, and failure drills on my own. Don't need to destroy a rifle to do it and doubt I will ever be able to survive an engagement where I shoot that many rounds. All these tactical to practical folks thinking they are going to survive with a 2 man team against an assault in which they dump through 8 mags. Yeah right. The guy you don't see b/c it is impossible to maintain 360 degree security with 2 men is the one that puts you down.
Of course you haven't gone to a class, why should your immense ego take the hit, when you can sit back and pontificate about how great, smart and hard working you are! If you haven't been you don't know.
Its not about marksmanship, its about fighting with a gun. Albeit, shooting with guys like LAV, marksmanship is a huge part of it.
If 1500 rounds destroys a rifle, your making bad rifle choices.
You can work out mag changes and other skills on your own? Good for you, others prefer to learn from recognized subject matter experts, who tried a lot of different way's, have seen them succeed or fail in combat for real, not just some living room/flat range fantasy world.
Not sure what classes your talking about, with the two man tactics, bit, but most simply try to expose you to team type tactics, working as a team, and operating under pressure.
But, for some of us, 2 may be all we have, and we have no choice but to go thru the door.
Just some things to think about. I am sure all the dogmatists will try and poke through my arguements. I could care less, b/c I proved them to be correct for myself.
What did Rob say about sticking your fingers in your ears?
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