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Thread: 'Just' irons?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Mr. Moran, when you state that learning iron sights first is total BS, it comes across as, "why bother to learn iron sights?"

    It doesn't jive with your claim that you never said one shouldn't learn the fundamentals of shooting iron sights.

    I do not make the claim you are deliberately misleading or any other such nonsense. Merely to give feedback as to how your choice of words are coming across to me
    No need for mister....

    I've clarified my point, and I believe we've discussed this before.

    As you can see, many believe that it is necessary to learn to use iron sights FIRST I disagree. You can learn to shoot proficiently with any kind of sight.

    Should you know how to use iron sights, absolutely. Do you need to know that, before anything else, or an optic, absolutely not.

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post


    Your killin me. No I didn't have time to read obscure books on military history, I was to busy diggin a fighting position and actually executing small unit tactics.

    Are you really trying to say reading over 3K books on the subject, is the equivalent or superior, to actually doing it??



    And I wont need a NPOA for that.

    Bob
    No....only relaying where my information/experience was coming from. I appreciate your service.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Mr. Moran, when you state that learning iron sights first is total BS, it comes across as, "why bother to learn iron sights?"

    It doesn't jive with your claim that you never said one shouldn't learn the fundamentals of shooting iron sights.

    I do not make the claim you are deliberately misleading or any other such nonsense. Merely to give feedback as to how your choice of words are coming across to me
    I don't see how you, or anyone else, can say this.

    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    I never said to not learn to use iron sights, only that learning them first is BS.
    I have yet to see a single advantage to learning to shoot with iron sights first.
    Shooting accurately is all about manipulating the trigger with out disturbing sight alignment/picture. What kind of sights they are has nothing to do with it.
    Not having to worry about the visual gymnastics of iron sights allows the student to concentrate on proper trigger manipulation, after you have that down, the rest is cake.

    It sounds more like people choosing irons are making more assumptions and bad TTP's then informed decisions.

    Yea we did fine w/o a lot of stuff, we also got on line and shot at each other with muzzle loaders, I don't see anyone advocating that anymore though. Some of you guys need to take a look at the calendar.

    Bob

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    The topic of this thread, regardless of small unit tactics (theory or reality) is "just irons". Ultimately what we have is very few who would advocate for the use of iron sights only on a carbine intended for fighting, especially when better, and faster, options are available. Is the optic as necessary as the light? No. Is it still an invaluable tool and a force multiplier in the right hands? I believe it absolutely is.

    The topic of which to train on first came up, and things got derailed, but the core topic at hand is one that all but the most intentionally anachronistic (often to their own detriment) agree on. Even the majority who are running irons-only at the moment concede that they are either doing so out of a desire to learn the basic carbine or due to budgetary constraints.
    Here it is, distilled to it's essence. My HD rifles are all iron sighted because it's either impractical to mount an optic sight or because I cannot yet afford one. As confident as I am in the use of iron sights, I hope to have a dedicated HD carbine with an optic or RDS

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    No need for mister....

    I've clarified my point, and I believe we've discussed this before.

    As you can see, many believe that it is necessary to learn to use iron sights FIRST I disagree. You can learn to shoot proficiently with any kind of sight.

    Should you know how to use iron sights, absolutely. Do you need to know that, before anything else, or an optic, absolutely not.

    Bob
    We have. I've come to understand your position. Though I don't agree completely, that discussion helped me realize there are more points where I agree with you than I first realized. It also brought forth important points for me to ponder

  6. #86
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    wow!

    First off, settle people


    On hammonje's first post (mainly the first few sentences) I agreed with him. Then I kept reading.

    I have to say that learning irons is mandatory from all shooters, not that is hast to be first, but it sure as hell should be done before you even get off the bench.

    I teach Archery, Rifle, and Shotgun merit badge at a Boy Scout camp, and I can't tell you the amount of times I have a father son combo come up telling us instructors how good of a shot their son is. Not that being proud is bad, but that’s getting off topic. Usually the first question I ask is, “on what rifle and what kind of sights?” The answer is usually some bolt action .22 of some random make topped with a 3-9 power scope. Then I see the scout at the bench with the camp 22s we provide, getting less than satisfactory groupings. I see the father standing a few feet away wondering where he went wrong.

    I have seen many cases like this where a few sessions of one on one coaching resolve the matter and the skills they already know begin to show.

    Where learning irons FIRST is not always the best route, the skill should be mastered before the shooter leaves the bench.

    From what I understand the best HD setup would be a light, red dot or other similar sight with BUIS, with the BUIS as a fall back if something goes south with your optic. My idea is, if your backup is a skill you haven’t mastered, why is it your backup? (Not that any of you have said DON'T bother with irons. it's just my idea)

    So my main point is red dots are fantastic tools, but irons (and all other fundamentals) should be mastered before you bother with any sort of defensive weapon.

    Where you guys picked up group tactics on this topic I'll never know

  7. #87
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    Lots of craziness over something that is so basic.

    I'm proficient with both my irons and my Aimpoint. Does it matter which one I learned first?
    If you're in range, so are they...

  8. #88
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    Is there any reason that I would need a T1 over an H1, if I don't use NVDs?
    The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. - Ayn Rand

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyPistolero View Post
    Is there any reason that I would need a T1 over an H1, if I don't use NVDs?


    Nope.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyPistolero View Post
    Is there any reason that I would need a T1 over an H1, if I don't use NVDs?
    Unless you go diving with your rifle, no.

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