Questions Concerning Handgun Grip and Reload Techniques

[Jay Cunningham]

I want to open a discussion on some of the most common techniques employed currently in defensive (and some competitive) handgunning. Specifically, the "two thumbs forward" grip and rotating the gun up and in during the reload.

Is there a particular advantage to the thumbs-forward grip versus say a thumbs-high grip? Also, when reloading, is anybody concerned that rotating the gun up close to the face may introduce control vulnerabilities?

Thanks in advance for your answers and experiences.

[John_Wayne777]

As requested:

In reference to the thumbs-forward grip:

Personally I find that I am able to get a MUCH more secure grip on the weapon with the thumbs-forward technique. I find that I "drive" the weapon much more naturally and manage to get the sights on target faster when I use the thumbs forward grip.

Thumbs forward helps minimize lateral movement of the weapon as well, another factor in helping with accuracy. The downside of the thumbs forward grip is that on some weapons I render the slide lock inoperative on an empty magazine. (Sigs, mainly...) A small price to pay, in my opinion, for the increased accuracy and speed I get.

In reference to the "workstation" philosophy:

As far as the reloading thing goes, Todd is showing what is called the "workstation" philosophy. Blackwater (and lots of other folks) teaches that to students. It is quicker and easier to reload when the weapon is in close to the body and it allows you to get eyes on to the most critical part of the reload, namely the insertion of the new mag into the mag-well.

Done properly, you are focused on the threat/target until the point when you are ready to insert the magazine, and then you focus on the weapon to ensure you get the new magazine in there, and then once you begin to drive the magazine into the well to seat it, you focus back on the threat. Done properly, you don't miss anything going on in front of you, but you are able to reload much more quickly, reliably, and efficiently.

[subzero]

Is there any real difference between thumbs-forward and thumbs-high? Seems to me that thumbs-high is just thumbs-forward on a gun with a lot of crap (improperly placed slide release, decocker, etc) in the way and that's the change needed to work around all of that.

As far as rotating the gun up in front of the face during reloads, I'm less concerned with loss of control of the weapon. If we want to make that case, we could easily say any manipulation of the weapon at all (strong hand only, reholstering, etc) constitutes a risk of loss of control. I'm more concerned about getting it fed quickly and keeping my eye on the bad guys. Where else would I put it when trying to feed it? Down by my waist? Center of chest? If I have it anywhere but up in front of me I'm taking my eyes off of what's in front of me for the second that I'm looking the magazine into the magazine well. While that's true no matter where the gun is, the further it is from that line of sight the longer it'll take to reacquire the bad guys once the gun is fed.

I try to tell myself to keep the gun almost artificially high (like right in my eyeline) when I'm reloading. If I don't, the natural tendency seems to be to let it drop while I reload, leaving me hunched over at the end of the reload. It seems smoother for me because I'm taking less time to reacquire the target once the reload is complete. Further, the sights come to the eye quicker because the gun stays at nearly the same level (eye level) for the duration of the reload.

[Hoplophile]

Also, when reloading, is anybody concerned that rotating the gun up close to the face may introduce control vulnerabilities?

I'm a lot more concerned that when I'm not in my workstation I am risking "control vulnerabilities" such as fumbling the insertion and dropping the mag on my toes.

[Robb Jensen]

The timer has proven time and again that the more 'contact' you have with the pistol the more control you have of the pistol. The more control you have of the pistol the faster you can shoot it more accurately.

As Wyatt Earp said "Speed is fine but accuracy is final". But better yet why not be open minded enough to realize you need both speed and accuracy? Bad guys aren't going to give you a PAR time.

I've never lost control of my gun while looking at it near my face doing a reload. I have lost control of a mag doing the reload, the gun is more important. For IPSC/USPSA shooting I have 1 gun and a minimum of 4 mags on my body, sometimes 6 mags depending on what division I'm shooting. If I drop or fumble a reload, go for the next mag.

It may not work for you..............it's just a way, not the way.

[Jay Cunningham]

As requested:

The downside of the thumbs forward grip is that on some weapons I render the slide lock inoperative on an empty magazine. (Sigs, mainly...) A small price to pay, in my opinion, for the increased accuracy and speed I get.

What about inadvertant slide lock?

It is quicker and easier to reload when the weapon is in close to the body and it allows you to get eyes on to the most critical part of the reload, namely the insertion of the new mag into the mag-well.

Done properly, you are focused on the threat/target until the point when you are ready to insert the magazine, and then you focus on the weapon to ensure you get the new magazine in there, and then once you begin to drive the magazine into the well to seat it, you focus back on the threat. Done properly, you don't miss anything going on in front of you, but you are able to reload much more quickly, reliably, and efficiently.

I agree that the handgun should be drawn close into the body and kept at least in peripheral vision (if possible) while watching the threat. But what if it is very dark or you have had a light directed at your eyes and you have lost your night vision? Is training yourself to always glance at your HG during a reload setting you up for failure if the lights go out?

[Jay Cunningham]

Is there any real difference between thumbs-forward and thumbs-high?

Hey, that's what I asked! Is there any real difference? I know it's possible to accidentally lock the slide back with TF; that can't happen with TH. If there is no real difference between the two, why not go with the fool-proof grip?

Seems to me that thumbs-high is just thumbs-forward on a gun with a lot of crap (improperly placed slide release, decocker, etc) in the way and that's the change needed to work around all of that.

You may not always have the advantage of using your favorite handgun. Cross-platform universal techniques can come in handy.

[John_Wayne777]

What about inadvertant slide lock?

I've never had an issue with it myself. Generally the issue I have with slide locks is that I deactivate them with my big meaty paws. If because of your particular physiology you find that you are accidentally engaging the slide lock and clucking up the cycling of the weapon, then I'd give a hearty AMEN! to the idea of changing the thumb position to high.

I've never seen it give anyone slide locking issues before, but there's a whole lot of crap in this world that I've never seen before, so YMMV.

[Jay Cunningham]

As far as rotating the gun up in front of the face during reloads, I'm less concerned with loss of control of the weapon. If we want to make that case, we could easily say any manipulation of the weapon at all (strong hand only, reholstering, etc) constitutes a risk of loss of control. I'm more concerned about getting it fed quickly and keeping my eye on the bad guys. Where else would I put it when trying to feed it? Down by my waist? Center of chest? If I have it anywhere but up in front of me I'm taking my eyes off of what's in front of me for the second that I'm looking the magazine into the magazine well. While that's true no matter where the gun is, the further it is from that line of sight the longer it'll take to reacquire the bad guys once the gun is fed.

I try to tell myself to keep the gun almost artificially high (like right in my eyeline) when I'm reloading. If I don't, the natural tendency seems to be to let it drop while I reload, leaving me hunched over at the end of the reload. It seems smoother for me because I'm taking less time to reacquire the target once the reload is complete. Further, the sights come to the eye quicker because the gun stays at nearly the same level (eye level) for the duration of the reload.

I'm a lot more concerned that when I'm not in my workstation I am risking "control vulnerabilities" such as fumbling the insertion and dropping the mag on my toes.

I've never lost control of my gun while looking at it near my face doing a reload. I have lost control of a mag doing the reload, the gun is more important. I have 1 gun and a minimum of 4 mags on my body, sometimes 6 depending on what division I'm shooting.

When I asked about "control vulnerabilites" I was referring to weapon retention, not fumbling the gun or magazine. I am specifically referring to the practice of rotating the HG inboard and up with the stong side arm during the reload. This seems to be a very weak retention position and allows a threat to control the arm and gun if he gets ahold of either.

The alternative I am proposing is a reload at a "compressed ready" position, drawing the pistol in toward the chest but still pointing out. This seems a stronger retention position.

[John_Wayne777]

You may not always have the advantage of using your favorite handgun. Cross-platform universal techniques can come in handy.

True....

But I own now or have owned darn near one of practically everything on the market as far as handguns go...Glocks, Sigs, Walthers, Berettas, USPs...The thumbs forward grip has never caused me any issue other than failure to have the slide lock to the rear on an empty magazine on some of the Sigs and occasionally on my Walther P99.

It's never interfered with the operation of a decocker on a Sig for me.