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Thread: Questions Concerning Handgun Grip and Reload Techniques

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekatar View Post
    When I asked about "control vulnerabilites" I was referring to weapon retention, not fumbling the gun or magazine. I am specifically referring to the practice of rotating the HG inboard and up with the stong side arm during the reload. This seems to be a very weak retention position and allows a threat to control the arm and gun if he gets ahold of either.
    Possibly, but if your weapon is dry the primary concern you have is the dry weapon rather than hanging on to it.

    I've never heard anyone cite retention concerns when using the method Jarret shows in the aforementioned video.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    The timer has proven time and again that the more 'contact' you have with the pistol the more control you have of the pistol. The more control you have of the pistol the faster you can shoot it more accurately.

    As Wyatt Earp said "Speed is fine but accuracy is final". But better yet why not be open minded enough to realize you need both speed and accuracy? Bad guys aren't going to give you a PAR time.

    It may not work for you..............it's just a way, not the way.
    I agree that 100% contact around the grip is crucial. After experimentation the thumbs-high seems like it would maybe lose about 3% total contact (tips of thumbs) with the pistol.

    Understand about being open-minded - I hope that's what I'm doing here asking these questions! Believe me, I'm at the beginning of my path trying to find my own way. I am not stating that a technique is wrong or right, I'm asking, "why?"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekatar View Post
    When I asked about "control vulnerabilites" I was referring to weapon retention, not fumbling the gun or magazine. I am specifically referring to the practice of rotating the HG inboard and up with the stong side arm during the reload. This seems to be a very weak retention position and allows a threat to control the arm and gun if he gets ahold of either.

    The alternative I am proposing is a reload at a "compressed ready" position, drawing the pistol in toward the chest but still pointing out. This seems a stronger retention position.
    Not a bad idea but hopefully you would be reloading behind 'cover' in the real world in a real gun fight. In the game.........aka competition the targets are unarmed and not shooting back. In a real gunfight the New York reload is the fastest reload (it's a 2nd gun for those unfamiliar with the term.)

    That's why I constantly tell people 'competition' and 'training' are not the same. But both do complement each other.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Wayne777 View Post
    I've never heard anyone cite retention concerns when using the method Jarret shows in the aforementioned video.
    Neither have I. That's why I'm asking about them.


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekatar View Post
    Neither have I. That's why I'm asking about them.

    Might be another addition in the "reasons to pack a backup" list.....

    If someone wants to grab my weapon when I'm reloading, they are in for a VERY unpleasant surprise....


  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Wayne777 View Post
    Might be another addition in the "reasons to pack a backup" list.....

    If someone wants to grab my weapon when I'm reloading, they are in for a VERY unpleasant surprise....
    That's exactly what I'm getting at.

    I am viewing all of this through the eyes of a civilian carrying a concealed HG, acting as a lone operator against a lethal threat or threats. I am looking at the differences between transitioning to a HG on the carbine range, shooting competition style (as Jarrett excels at) and close range defensive handgunning where edged weapons, disarms and H2H may all come into play.

    Thank you all for your thoughtful responses so far - I have much more now to consider. Hopefully I've presented some things to consider as well.

  7. #17
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    When I was being taught the basics of how to shoot, another element of the "thumbs forward" is that you have them both pointed at your target/threat.

    It's kind of like how some people use their index finger on their support hand alongside the forearm of their long gun to "point" at the target/threat.

    It may be a minor factor or just psychological, but anything that helps you index on your target/threat more naturally is a good thing, even if you are using your sights 100% of the time.

    Another thing is that for 1911 shooters, the firing hand thumb is (in my case) always on top of the thumb safety, whether it's up or down. When firing, my thumb is riding on the thumb safety, making sure it stays down. That coincidentally has my thumb pointed toward the threat/target when I am pointed in or firing. Putting the other thumb in a corresponding position just seems more natural than letting it point upward.

    Finally, I feel I have a more secure grip when I do it. The DTI/Farnam people teach the high thumbs grips, and it works well for them and their students, but it has not worked well for me when I've tried it.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post
    When I was being taught the basics of how to shoot, another element of the "thumbs forward" is that you have them both pointed at your target/threat.

    It's kind of like how some people use their index finger on their support hand alongside the forearm of their long gun to "point" at the target/threat.

    It may be a minor factor or just psychological, but anything that helps you index on your target/threat more naturally is a good thing, even if you are using your sights 100% of the time.
    This is what I have heard as well, but is it true? People don't usually point with their thumbs, so I'm not sure.

    Another thing is that for 1911 shooters, the firing hand thumb is (in my case) always on top of the thumb safety, whether it's up or down. When firing, my thumb is riding on the thumb safety, making sure it stays down. That coincidentally has my thumb pointed toward the threat/target when I am pointed in or firing. Putting the other thumb in a corresponding position just seems more natural than letting it point upward.
    It's my opinion that what you just wrote above is the real reason why the thumbs-forward became the defacto grip.

    Finally, I feel I have a more secure grip when I do it. The DTI/Farnam people teach the high thumbs grips, and it works well for them and their students, but it has not worked well for me when I've tried it.
    It is exactly John Farnam and his AI's who persuaded me to change my grip and the way I reload. Their arguments were convincing to me, so I'm doing it their way until I can be convinced again otherwise. That's why all the questions.

  9. #19
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    Don't know if I can add much to what has been said, but..

    I've been shooting the thumbs forward for about 18 years now. Its the only grip I've ever been taught. I feel it gives you the most control over the gun, pointing your thumb forward, is akin to closing your fist, while pointing it upward, seems like a weaker grip.
    Curling your strong thumb under your weak hand, just seems ludicrous, and unnatural to me, but some do teach and use it.
    I've used it on everything, 1911'a, Berettas, Glocks, Sigs, H&K, M&P, SAA, COlt and S&W Revolvers, with no ill effect. No lock back or opens, etc. But, I do have small hands.

    The reload, one quote I've heard in certain circles, concerning watching the target/threat during a reload is, "You'll only watch him kill you".

    As Paul Howe once explained to class, your most important problem is the empty gun, nothing else matters but getting that loaded. Then you can worry about other stuff.
    Paul also teaches a high ready, which puts the muzzle somewhere between eye and chin level, one of the big reasons for this, is retention. And I see reloading at about the same level, the same way.

    Bob

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekatar View Post
    It is exactly John Farnam and his AI's who persuaded me to change my grip and the way I reload. Their arguments were convincing to me, so I'm doing it their way until I can be convinced again otherwise. That's why all the questions.
    And that's what really matters ... if it works for you, then it DOES!

    I'm not averse to new ideas and trying new methods, but I also believe in the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" philosophy.

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