3-Gun Rilfes

[Resq47]

My 'match gun' is on the atypical side, but it works for me. The magnifier puts me in Open class for our system (ACTS). We banned brakes as well as a safety issue. They have proven to be distracting when shooting positions aren't dictated and the RSO's need latitude for maintaining a good control position without getting concussed.

[rob_s]

Some of the clubs in my area have banned the use of muzzle brakes.

I'm close to banning them for our matches, simply because they make it intolerable to run the shooter.

[Robb Jensen]

We banned brakes as well as a safety issue. They have proven to be distracting when shooting positions aren't dictated and the RSO's need latitude for maintaining a good control position without getting concussed.

Using that logic you should then I guess ban 10" ARs as well.

My LMT 10.3" w/XM193 is just as loud and has as much concussion as my 16" 3gun rifle w/American Eagle 55gr. There is a reason why I double up on my hearing protection around Open guns (rifle and pistol) using foam ear plugs and electronic Pro Ears muffs.

[rob_s]

Using that logic you should then I guess ban 10" ARs as well.

My LMT 10.3" w/XM193 is just as loud and has as much concussion as my 16" 3gun rifle w/American Eagle 55gr. There is a reason why I double up on my hearing protection around Open guns (rifle and pistol) using foam ear plugs and electronic Pro Ears muffs.

I completely disagree, as I think we've discussed before. I shot next to a shooter with a 10.5" for 3 days at a Pat Rogers class and had no issue. I was next to someone with a Miculek break for one drill and won't do it again.

At the end of the day it may just become mechanics. I won't run shooters with breaks, and if they can't find another SO to run them they'll be SOL. Free market rule-making!

[Robb Jensen]

I completely disagree, as I think we've discussed before. I shot next to a shooter with a 10.5" for 3 days at a Pat Rogers class and had no issue. I was next to someone with a Miculek break for one drill and won't do it again.

At the end of the day it may just become mechanics. I won't run shooters with breaks, and if they can't find another SO to run them they'll be SOL. Free market rule-making!

You're arguing from the particular to the general (this goes against the rules of logic).
You're saying because 1 particular 10.5" AR was tolerable, then all 10.5" ARs are tolerable. (this can't be further from the truth).
A logical statement would have been: I found one particular 10.5" AR which was tolerable and yours might be too.

I have many more people whine about my 10" LMT than I have my 3gun rifles noise, I guess because they expect it from the 3gun rifle. I've only had 2 people (same day) bitch about my 3gun rifle at the Blackwater side matches (I won which is probably why they were bitching).

I shoot a lot of indoor matches too and don't get the complaints. I guess up here people are just used to the noise (or they just cowboy up) as there's a huge USPSA following with a lot of Open shooters with pistols and some Open rifles. Any match that banned there use I wouldn't shoot, not gonna spend my money on some club that takes away from the spirit of the game. Kinda reminds me of 'restrictor plates' in NASCAR.............run what you brung............if what you brung can't compete oh well. Don't penalize the gear to try to make it 'more' equal, it's a big boy game with big boy toys.

[rob_s]

Oh well, to each their own I guess. It's obviously part of the different motivations of different people, with gamers opting for the brakes.

Like I said, I won't run people with them. If they can't find another SO then they're screwed. Shooting a stage from cover with a brake is just brutal to the SO, and I'm not going to double-up on hearing protection just so some guy can shave 2/10ths of a second off his time.

With our scoring it really doesn't matter anyway. We're not USPSA, we're SFDCC and we do our own thing. USPSA/IPSC 3-gun ain't for me. The "spirit of the game" for us is much more practical oriented and the stages, and rifles people use, reflect that. In truth we get very few brakes anymore except for the USPSA guys that show up for their first match, and they don't keep using those guns for long. Frankly, we don't WANT shooters who are that gamey anyway.

As a side note, I love how these discussions always boil down to bullshit remarks like "cowboy up" and all that. As if there's some toughness level achieved by a USPSA SO by running a bunch of geeks in spandex while they run around a field at full-tilt with Star Wars guns that weigh 12 pounds.

[Robb Jensen]

As a side note, I love how these discussions always boil down to bullshit remarks like "cowboy up" and all that. As if there's some toughness level achieved by a USPSA SO by running a bunch of geeks in spandex while they run around a field at full-tilt with Star Wars guns that weigh 12 pounds.

Well there it is.......'Training/Fighting' isn't 'Competiton'.......My rifle weights 8.5lbs and I don't wear spandex.
Why not just do away with the timer and quit keeping score and just call it a bunch of guys training? That way the brakes/comps are of no benefit.

Next thing you know, you'll be requiring the use of suppressors and 20"+ barrels.

There's always small bore for the 'sound' sensitive.

I find that the IDPA shooters (not USPSA shooters) are more the 'Star Wars' geeks (my wife actually called them that a few months back at an IDPA match, they didn't like that much). Some IDPA shooters try to tell you that this or that is the way you should shoot a stage (yet they've never been in a gunfight). Who knows where they come up with this stuff. They had penalized me for not shooting while moving, I was constantly moving (just not fast enough for them) I took 1.5 steps and got off 3 shots (all great hits) and they didn't like that and called me 'gamer', oh well.
They've lost touch that it's a game and not 'training'. I'm not a tactics expert nor do I give tactics advice (other than not having a gun in a gunfight is clearly bad tactics ) nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night...........it's a game, I play the 'game'. Some don't like that.

Competition is simply that, competition. If you want to play in Open class, play, if not shoot irons or stay home. I view Open as the 'full out race' (like Indy car) of handgun shooting and Limited as the 'modified' class. One is 'full out race', the just regular/mainstream. I like 'full out race' for rifle and 'modified' for pistol. YMMV.

We'll just have to agree to disagree dude. And that's cool.

[mark5pt56]

It all depends on what you want to do. I've found that most people like competitions that are fun with basic safety rules in mind. If you try to set rules that penalize for bad tactics, people come from different backgrounds and have different ideas on what's sound and what isn't.

Like Robb mentioned, it's a game. When it's a game, you decide what you want to play with. Don't confuse the two, you wouldn't do alot of things if you were being shot at like you do in a game. You are under the clock in the game so you do things to get you through from a to b as quick as possible. I don't like timing any "course" in training, people start using bad tactics. Timing certain manipulations are good though to have a performance measure to guide you.

I've also learned that there's a lot of "gamers" that can run a standard gun and understand good tactics very well. The competitions are just another outlet for increasing shooting skill.

My opinion anyhow.

Mark

[Robb Jensen]

I've also learned that there's a lot of "gamers" that can run a standard gun and understand good tactics very well. The competitions are just another outlet for increasing shooting skill.

Excellent Mark.

I find that nothing greatly enhances ones gun handling skills like USPSA does. Paul Deel is a great example of this, he's an excellent competitor (some would call 'gamer') and a great tactician (he's a Danville Police officer). IIRC Paul won the FOP match I helped RO at Blackwater.
Paul is a Master class Production shooter in USPSA and a Master class shooter in IDPA.

Robb

[AR15barrels]

Well there it is.......'Training/Fighting' isn't 'Competiton'.......My rifle weights 8.5lbs and I don't wear spandex.
Why not just do away with the timer and quit keeping score and just call it a bunch of guys training? That way the brakes/comps are of no benefit.

+1

If there's a timer, it's a game.
Brakes are completely appropriate in games, even if they annoy the SO.
I know where to stand when I am the SO so that they don't effect me so much.

If you don't want gamers, don't hold competitions, hold training classes.
It's really that simple.