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Thread: M4 Failure Article - What Do You Think?

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    M4 Failure Article - What Do You Think?

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...happened-wanat

    The above link takes you to an article titled "What Really Happened at Wanat?" which was published in "Proceedings Magazine", by the U. S. Naval Institute in July 2010. It's interesting reading if you've never seen some of the intended rates of fire and their related failure modes for the M4. Most of that information comes up in the "rounds per minute" section of the article. There are also discussions of other M4 issues, many of which have been kicked around previously on m4c.net.
    One quote that particularly surprises me is found in the "other causes" section: "Maintenance regimens, including weapon cleaning and lubrication, have very little or no impact on . . . weapon stoppages" the report said. However, Soldiers who used dry lubricants in the maintenance of their M4s, rather than CLP, "decreased the probability of experiencing a stoppage by half."23 Soldiers reporting a high frequency of lubricant application (one or more times per day), particularly M16 users, were more likely to experience stoppages.24 (emphasis added). This seems to be in direct conflict with most of the information from SME's and Industry Professionals here at m4c. Is this statement likely due to poor study design, poor training of users, misinterpretation of the study results by the article author, or ???

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    Yeah it was kicked around quite a bit here after the incident occurred. I think the Soldiers giving those accounts are simply out of touch as to actual condition of their weapon at the time of the engagement. Lack of lube, lack of fire discipline and lack of leadership is what caused the failure of the weapons. The quote about a Soldier shooting 12 Mags (360 rounds) in a 30 minute period is disturbing. A well known and world renowned trainer on this very forum stated that in combat, your shooting will diminish to approximately 50%, depending on the shooter, from the square range. Using fire discipline (controlled and aimed fire) he should have at least killed or wounded at a minimum of 180 bad guys, accounting for a 50% miss rate as the fire fight ensued, just from the stress of the engagement. But I doubt it. As KevinB once stated, they should have aimed more and shot less.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 12-22-10 at 21:30.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  3. #3
    Dano5326 Guest
    Lubricant isn't the issue.

    #1 cause of malfunctions in magazine fed weapons.... is the magazine.

    What is the US Mil, or for that matter any LE agency's, methodology of ensuring an individuals issued magazines function in their assigned weapons. O' wait, there is none.

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    This-

    Big Army has a tendency to re-issue mags that should be taken out of service & shitcanned/crushed, but never are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    Lubricant isn't the issue.

    #1 cause of malfunctions in magazine fed weapons.... is the magazine.

    What is the US Mil, or for that matter any LE agency's, methodology of ensuring an individuals issued magazines function in their assigned weapons. O' wait, there is none.
    Last edited by GermanSynergy; 12-22-10 at 22:06.
    SSG Jimmy Ide- KIA 28 Aug 10, Hyderabad, AFG

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    Wait!!! Didn't they put out that feed lip gage???

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    I found this part interesting.

    A December 2005 study conducted by the 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), for example, which evaluated the HK416 and Colt's Close Quarters Battle-Receiver (CQB-R), concluded that CQB-R "out performed the HK416 in mechanical reliability
    What is a CQB-R?

    I gotta agree on the mag issue. Probably the biggest reason for malfunctions.
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
    3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
    2002-2006
    OIF 1 and 3

    IraqGunz:
    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
    I found this part interesting.



    What is a CQB-R?

    I gotta agree on the mag issue. Probably the biggest reason for malfunctions.
    10.3" barreled colt
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Q...attle_Receiver

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    nevermind....
    Last edited by C-grunt; 12-22-10 at 22:58.
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
    3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
    2002-2006
    OIF 1 and 3

    IraqGunz:
    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

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    I was issued magazines that had been worn down to the bare metal around the feedlips. The first thing I did was go out and replace all twelve magazines.

    Whoever said it first was right. Big Army doesn't give a shit about weapon expendables like magazines, too many supply Sergeants and systems just completely screwed the pooch on this, weapon spares, and cleaning supplies.

    I remember ripping up t-shirts and getting oil from the motor pool because CLP and rags couldn't be found anywhere.

    Magazines are an expendable part that has a limited lifespan. Until they adopt that policy they'll continue to have issues.
    Last edited by SW-Shooter; 12-22-10 at 23:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    Using fire discipline (controlled and aimed fire) he should have at least killed or wounded at a minimum of 180 bad guys, accounting for a 50% miss rate as the fire fight ensued, just from the stress of the engagement...
    He could have been shooting suppressive fire but I agree that most lack fire control and more likely in this situation, it probably is the latter

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