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Thread: M4 Failure Article - What Do You Think?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    There is a lot of bullshit, chest thumping, Monday morning quarterbacking over Wanat.

    A dead PL, breached defenses, running outside the wire to help dead and wounded at an outpost. Wanat was a shit storm, and a lot of Good American boys were killed by a well coordinated enemy with superior numbers within combatives range, not because they were trigger happy **** ups waiting to get smoked.

    Wanat exposed a deficiency with the M4 under EXTREME conditions, and we'll get an improved weapon as a result.

    Some people need to get their head unwrapped from ass and realize the M4 is not perfect, and it can be improved to ensure that Soldiers have a better chance when hell goes to 11.
    No body is Monday morning quarterbacking, and thanks for reminding of the obvious as to the outcome of that engagement at Wanat. Nobody is pissing on that unit or the men who died. The flaws that have been in the system from Nam are still with the military today. Lube needs to be applied. Mags need to be inspected and changed. Extractors need to be replaced, especially before deployment. Leadership needs to be more tactically aware when placing outpost well out of range of range of Arty and CAS in damn near indefensible positions which are vulnerable to a determined, all out 360 attack. The average Soldier doesn't know the condition of their weapon and thinks it's OK, until a fire fight ensues. Do we need a new weapon system in the hands of the Infantry? You bet. But a lot of the issues the military is having with the M-4, and the members of that unit, could have been mitigated.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    The average Soldier doesn't know the condition of their weapon and thinks it's OK, until a fire fight ensues.

    That is the tragedy. There is no substitute for training to include weapons maintainance.

    Wet lube can be both your friend and enemy. All things being equal and with technological advances in lubricants, ultimately dry lubes may be preferred. I do believe that coated - i.e. Nickle Boron - internals may be the future in the M16 platform to help keep it running at a higher level of reliability in some of the worse conditions.
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 12-23-10 at 16:03.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Glockster View Post
    Man, there is a lot in this thread that I've never heard.

    Not staggering the gas rings? Dry lube instead of CLP?

    Is there one place I can get this and other updated information?
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61505

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35490

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355

    These four stickies are a great place to start.

  4. #24
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    If they were getting their weapons white hot from shooting so much, it doesn't sound like there was a magazine problem or an extraction problem or anything else, other than sooting the shit out of the gun.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchK View Post
    If they were getting their weapons white hot from shooting so much, it doesn't sound like there was a magazine problem or an extraction problem or anything else, other than sooting the shit out of the gun.
    If you observe a new or maintained barrel VS a good used one, you will notice the used one is lighter in color than the other. The new or maintained ones are very dark gray. I've gotten my AR barrels to turn damn near ash white. That's from the oil cooking off the barrel after 5 or six mags being fired in rapid succession, and not from the barrel turning actually white hot. The finish of the barrel is designed to hold oil...longer, even if it appears to be dry. It will continue to lighten with use to a point, even when whipped down with an oily rag, which will restore some of the color, but not to it's original state. To an untrained eye or a person who hasn't shot a lot, it would appear that the barrel got "white hot". A barrel would have failed (burst) and melted long before the point of the metal actually turning "White Hot". In other words, it would have melted in the users hands, if he could have held on to it to that point.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 12-23-10 at 12:25.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  6. #26
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    The bottom line is that the M4 will never be a reliable weapon with DI when you intend to shoot 12-20 mags through it in 30 minutes.

    An AK will live up to that abuse. A M4 will not.

    An engineer specialist who loaded for Phillips recalled that, "Staff Sergeant Phillips poured out fire," going "through three rifles using them until they jammed."8 Specialist Chris McKaig, defending OP Topside, also experienced problems with his M4. "My weapon was overheating," he recalled. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."9
    THREE RIFLES????

    8. Ibid., p. 110.
    9. Ibid., p. 125.

    Wanat was a really bad situation, and the M4/M16 has a history of letting you down right in one of those situations. It has come a long way, and there are many things we love about it, but it just is not a rifle that you can use outside of its intended design. You can use all kinds of cool new technologies like nickel boron, but the M4 will never be able to live up to abuse like the AK can. I do not recall ever seeing even one thread on akforum.net about lubrication. NOT EVEN ONE! Why do you think that is?

    Many people here till tout the accuracy of the AR-15/M4/M16 they carry or own. Virtually no one will tout the reliability of the gun they own, unless it is made by a tier one manufacturer. I honestly doubt the accuracy of the platform matters if you are going to issue ammo that is not capable of sub 2-3 moa anyway. I would love to see a durable platform available. I think we need to learn from the past here with both popular rifles of the past 40+ years here. Durability is way more important than accuracy. The SCAR, the G36(xm8), The IAR, and other better platforms exist! Why keep giving colt money here? How effective is 5.56 really? If DocGKR refuses to carry an AR-15 with M193 or M855 because of lack of effectiveness, why are we issuing it to troops? If barrier blind projectiles are the future, why can't we step up to a caliber that will be more effective, make them cheaper to produce, and available to everyone?

    I do not think you can blame magazine issues to someone who had to use THREE RIFLES in less than one hour because of issues with the design.

    I own a KAC SR-15 and I love it, but it will never be as reliable as my AK74 is. I had a failure within the first 100 rounds... The bolt did not go all the way into battery. I pulled the trigger and it went "click." That is not a confidence inspiring thing. The AK has never bobbled -- no matter how many rounds you fire though it or how hot it gets.
    Last edited by fhpchris; 12-23-10 at 12:47.
    USMC vet.

  7. #27
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    .....and yet for some reason, the US Special Forces and the British SAS, not to mention other SF like the Poles GROM all use the M-4 and M-4 type rifles by the truckload when they could choose any one of the above you listed.

    Big effing clue there.
    Last edited by Heavy Metal; 12-23-10 at 12:53.
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  8. #28
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    The bottom line is that the M4 will never be a reliable weapon with DI when you intend to shoot 12
    Who ae we going to believe? You or our own lyin' eyes?

    See the second video:

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...and-m4a1-guns/
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Metal View Post
    .....and yet for some reason, the US Special Forces and the British SAS, not to mention other SF like the Poles GROM all use the M-4 and M-4 type rifles by the truckload when they could choose any one of the above you listed.

    Big effing clue there.
    The SAS use the G36, The HK33, The G-3, and many many other carbines too!

    The POLISH special forces? ROFL???

    Look at Israel bro. They can have anything they want -- ANYTHING!

    Do they still use the M4/M16? HELL NO!

    Here is a poland pic from the sandbox for you bro:



    Do you see any M4/M16s there?

    Here is a pic with a timestamp!

    I do not think those are pmags?
    Last edited by fhpchris; 12-23-10 at 13:04.
    USMC vet.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Exactly. And we are talking about an organization that still teaches soldiers to stagger their gas rings. That should say alot as to how much they understand the operation of the weapon.
    Wasn't there someone making a 'one piece' gas ring that was installed like a key on a key ring?

    The videos show why we have belt fed weapons with 'quick change' barrels.
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 12-23-10 at 13:15.

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