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Thread: M4 Failure Article - What Do You Think?

  1. #11
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    I seem to recall this was an extremely poorly set up "study" that indicated nothing, really, except for the preconceived biases and prejudices of the author of the study.

  2. #12
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    Exactly. And we are talking about an organization that still teaches soldiers to stagger their gas rings. That should say alot as to how much they understand the operation of the weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    Lubricant isn't the issue.

    #1 cause of malfunctions in magazine fed weapons.... is the magazine.

    What is the US Mil, or for that matter any LE agency's, methodology of ensuring an individuals issued magazines function in their assigned weapons. O' wait, there is none.



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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Exactly. And we are talking about an organization that still teaches soldiers to stagger their gas rings. That should say alot as to how much they understand the operation of the weapon.
    Hey I resemble that remark. It was something I was taught and to this day I do it. Don't ask why, call me a creature of habit but it's one of the things I've failed to unlearn.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    Yeah it was kicked around quite a bit here after the incident occurred. I think the Soldiers giving those accounts are simply out of touch as to actual condition of their weapon at the time of the engagement. Lack of lube, lack of fire discipline and lack of leadership is what caused the failure of the weapons. The quote about a Soldier shooting 12 Mags (360 rounds) in a 30 minute period is disturbing. A well known and world renowned trainer on this very forum stated that in combat, your shooting will diminish to approximately 50%, depending on the shooter, from the square range. Using fire discipline (controlled and aimed fire) he should have at least killed or wounded at a minimum of 180 bad guys, accounting for a 50% miss rate as the fire fight ensued, just from the stress of the engagement. But I doubt it. As KevinB once stated, they should have aimed more and shot less.
    There is a lot of bullshit, chest thumping, Monday morning quarterbacking over Wanat.

    A dead PL, breached defenses, running outside the wire to help dead and wounded at an outpost. Wanat was a shit storm, and a lot of Good American boys were killed by a well coordinated enemy with superior numbers within combatives range, not because they were trigger happy **** ups waiting to get smoked.

    Wanat exposed a deficiency with the M4 under EXTREME conditions, and we'll get an improved weapon as a result.

    Some people need to get their head unwrapped from ass and realize the M4 is not perfect, and it can be improved to ensure that Soldiers have a better chance when hell goes to 11.
    Last edited by variablebinary; 12-23-10 at 03:48.
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  5. #15
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    Variable Binary, well said.

    The Soldiers at Wanat did an incredible job defending an indefensible position. It's a miracle that they weren't over run and only 9 were killed. They were literally fish in a barrel. There were failures, well above the pay grade of anyone at that outpost, that allowed what happened. Trying to blame a rifle or how the Soldiers used their rifles, is allowing the politicians and Generals who are responsible to walk.
    Last edited by pcf; 12-23-10 at 03:18.

  6. #16
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    No one here has stated that the M4 is perfect. It obviously has some faults. However, you still have a military that teaches out dated crap to this day. The lubrication thing being one of them. I have talked with literally hundreds of military personnel who still do not know how to properly lubricate their weapons.

    What weapon do you think the military is going to get as a result? I personally do not see any change on the horizon.

    What improvements would you make or recommend to the platform if you could?

    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    There is a lot of bullshit, chest thumping, Monday morning quarterbacking over Wanat.

    A dead PL, breached defenses, running outside the wire to help dead and wounded at an outpost. Wanat was a shit storm, and a lot of Good American boys were killed by a well coordinated enemy with superior numbers within combatives range, not because they were trigger happy **** ups waiting to get smoked.

    Wanat exposed a deficiency with the M4 under EXTREME conditions, and we'll get an improved weapon as a result.

    Some people need to get their head unwrapped from ass and realize the M4 is not perfect, and it can be improved to ensure that Soldiers have a better chance when hell goes to 11.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  7. #17
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    Wet lubes can be both your friend and enemy in the M16 platform. All things being equal, dry lubes may also be preferred. It could be that coated - i.e. Nickle Boron - internals may be the future in the M16 platform to help keep it running at a higher level of reliability.
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 12-23-10 at 12:03.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dog guy View Post
    published in "Proceedings Magazine", by the U. S. Naval Institute in July 2010.
    Along the line of thought that 120mm mentioned above, consider for a moment that you're reading an article from Proceedings....

    ...which is about as pure a blue-water Navy pub as exists on the planet, opining on matters concerning the ground-combat element.

    That's like getting marital/sexual advice from a Monsignor McFadden Boylover.
    Last edited by JSantoro; 12-23-10 at 09:35.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    The quote about a Soldier shooting 12 Mags (360 rounds) in a 30 minute period is disturbing.
    We also need to be skeptical about how the soldier knew he fired all of those rounds in 30 minutes. I rather doubt he was checking his watch, so he probably only perceived the time to be 30 minutes. Folks under stress often grossly overestimate the elapsed time.

  10. #20
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    Man, there is a lot in this thread that I've never heard.

    Not staggering the gas rings? Dry lube instead of CLP?

    Is there one place I can get this and other updated information?

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