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Thread: M4 Failure Article - What Do You Think?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Metal View Post
    .....and yet for some reason, the US Special Forces and the British SAS, not to mention other SF like the Poles GROM all use the M-4 and M-4 type rifles by the truckload when they could choose any one of the above you listed.

    Big effing clue there.
    exactly...just as one example, in the Lone Survivor story no-one had any reported weapon failures, but killed a shit load of enemy in the process..and yet I wouldn't be surprised if that whole team probably expended less ammo than that one soldier in the report

    but I'll concede that if you choose to do mag dump after mag dump, with your whole combat load, then yes, maybe the M4 will fail..but since when was the M4 designed to be a Squad Automatic Machinegun? hell with that kind of rate of fire you'd probably burn out the barrel of your machine gun too...

    and yes you can do that with the AK, i.e. 360 rounds worth of spray and pray, and set the handguards on fire in the process, but are you producing effective fire or just a bunch of noise?

    fhp: I don't think that those Poles are SF, you could find all sorts of pictures of Polish SF using M4's. And actually I think that the AR type rifles and carbines are used extensively by the IDF, much more often than Galil's for example, including by IDF SF's
    Last edited by DacoRoman; 12-23-10 at 13:24.
    Formerly known as "Son of Vlad Tepes"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Vlad Tepes View Post
    exactly...just as one example, in the Lone Survivor story no-one had any reported weapon failures, but killed a shit load of enemy in the process..and yet I wouldn't be surprised if that whole team probably expended less ammo than that one soldier in the report
    The thought of a one hour battle with automatic weapons and a total expenditure of less than 12 mags for 48 people is insane. What drugs are you on?

    Dude, it happens. These were not people on a patrol here that were humping around a combat load. These were people here that were at a defended static position. I agree that the M240 and the M2 are the workhorses of defending a position like this, but in this case, many of the heavy weapons were taken out by the four sided attack with RPGS and a much much larger force of afgans.

    I am sure you can dig up stories from vietnam or the korean war where a small group of marines gets overrun by the mass swarming tactics of the Chinese. It happens. In the "history of the M16" on the history channel a vietnam vet claimed to fire 20+ mags in one session and also claimed that everyone in his platoon carried that much ammo while on the move. The M16 is just going to fail in that scenario. It is not going to fire 12-20 mags at once and not fail.

    but I'll concede that if you choose to do mag dump after mag dump, with your whole combat load, then yes, maybe the M4 will fail..but since when was the M4 designed to be a Squad Automatic Machinegun? hell with that kind of rate of fire you'd probably burn out the barrel of your machine gun too...
    These were not people with a combat load. This was a base.

    I seem to dobut that you would burn a machine gun barrel out with 2-300 rounds.

    and yes you can do that with the AK, i.e. 360 rounds worth of spray and pray, and set the handguards on fire in the process, but are you producing effective fire or just a bunch of noise?
    When a group of 48 or less is attacked by a group of 200 or more than it is not really hard to shoot mabye 300+ rounds over the course of an hour or so. 360 rounds will not set the handguards on fire either. I will attest that they do get very very warm and eventually will get set on fire, but when is that? 750 rounds? 1000 rounds? when? When does this happen on the RPK as well? Many of those are in this same region. Many of those 200 attackers at Wanat did not bring AKs to the party here -- They brought PKMs, RPDs, RPKs. I do not think it is outlandish to say that those guys used that amount of ammo here.

    Just calling the AK series, "spray and pray" when you compare them to a M855 service rifle is laughable. M855 is not winning any accuracy contests here. I think im going to side with Larry Vickers!

    fhp: I don't think that those Poles are SF, you could find all sorts of pictures of Polish SF using M4's. And actually I think that the AR type rifles and carbines are used extensively by the IDF, much more often than Galil's for example, including by IDF SF's
    Who really gives a shit what Polish SF use? What have they done that is so important? I am sure that any special forces that get to use whatever they want will almost assuredly use the M4/M16 at some point as it is a good series of rifles overall. Why the hell do you think everyone is here at M4c?

    I think it is a bit embarrassing that the country that you pimp for the M4, does not even use the M4 as the service rifle.... That is despite them joining nato in 1999 and buying 5.56 AKs. Thats just funny bro. You actually prove what I tried to explain.

    My army buddies tell me that the special forces they have seen over in the sandbox had FN SCARs. Personally I know they have used the HK 416 and the SCAR for some time. Big surprise there hunh?

    The IDF has moved to the Tavor, and they did use the Galil and M16/M4 series of rifles. The Galil is a heavy rifle, but it is also a very loved rifle. They wanted something shorter, lighter, and more 21st century -- I do not condemn them for that at all.
    Last edited by fhpchris; 12-23-10 at 14:40.
    USMC vet.

  3. #33
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    This thread is getting ****ing stupid.

    If you have not worked directly with a particular unit, you shouldn't be talking about what they carry, no matter what Wikipedia or your buddies told you. I have, and I can tell you that pretty much every SF unit in the world carries an AR based weapon. Does that mean that the M4 is the bestest thing in the world? Nope. But it does indicate that a trained and proficient user will be able to do good work with it.

    RE: DI
    It is what it is. There is no substantial proof that simply sticking a piston into an AR will make it more "reliable". It will make it less susceptible to issues caused by installing or removing a suppressor, if that is an issue for the user using 10.5 family guns.

    The M4 is not a light machinegun, and when you shoot it like one, it's going to puke, especially if it isn't frequently lubed. Even M249s and M240s need lube to run reliably/consistently. 200 rounds or more in 2 minutes or less= hot barrel, the point at which a machinegunner should perform a barrel change to be able to continue safe firing. There is a reason that the sustained fire rate for virtually all assault rifles is somewhere between 12 and 20 rounds per minute, with allowances for brief periods of rapid rate firing.

    The events of that fight are tragic and sad. Training, equipment, and planning all suffered failures, some due to the failures of the others. It's a cyclical vortex of ****uppery, and focusing on a single event without considering the circumstance and reality of the converging topics will lead nowhere useful.
    Jack Leuba
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    The SAS use the G36, The HK33, The G-3, and many many other carbines too!

    The POLISH special forces? ROFL???

    Look at Israel bro. They can have anything they want -- ANYTHING!

    Do they still use the M4/M16? HELL NO!

    Here is a poland pic from the sandbox for you bro:



    Do you see any M4/M16s there?

    Here is a pic with a timestamp!

    I do not think those are pmags?
    Some other Polish trooper with a Beryl ain't GROM. Apples aren't oranges either.


    Look at Israel bro. They can have anything they want -- ANYTHING!

    Do they still use the M4/M16? HELL NO!
    Excuse me? Are you serious? Other than the odd Tavor, that is what they are overwhelmingly using.
    Last edited by Heavy Metal; 12-23-10 at 15:17.
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    This thread is getting ****ing stupid.

    If you have not worked directly with a particular unit, you shouldn't be talking about what they carry, no matter what Wikipedia or your buddies told you. I have, and I can tell you that pretty much every SF unit in the world carries an AR based weapon. Does that mean that the M4 is the bestest thing in the world? Nope. But it does indicate that a trained and proficient user will be able to do good work with it.

    RE: DI
    It is what it is. There is no substantial proof that simply sticking a piston into an AR will make it more "reliable". It will make it less susceptible to issues caused by installing or removing a suppressor, if that is an issue for the user using 10.5 family guns.

    The M4 is not a light machinegun, and when you shoot it like one, it's going to puke, especially if it isn't frequently lubed. Even M249s and M240s need lube to run reliably/consistently. 200 rounds or more in 2 minutes or less= hot barrel, the point at which a machinegunner should perform a barrel change to be able to continue safe firing. There is a reason that the sustained fire rate for virtually all assault rifles is somewhere between 12 and 20 rounds per minute, with allowances for brief periods of rapid rate firing.

    The events of that fight are tragic and sad. Training, equipment, and planning all suffered failures, some due to the failures of the others. It's a cyclical vortex of ****uppery, and focusing on a single event without considering the circumstance and reality of the converging topics will lead nowhere useful.

    THIS... folks get all bet out of shape and scream for a new weapon every time an event like this happens. News flash.. If I hammer down the trigger on a M240 with one big continuous burst, I can achieve failure.... Fire superiority is not continuous mag dumps aimed in the general direction of the enemy...

    Anyone think you can do that with a ACR??? a SCAR??? there is no magical weapon that will do that wich fires smokeless powder and is made from Metal and plastic....

  6. #36
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    The events of that fight are tragic and sad. Training, equipment, and planning all suffered failures, some due to the failures of the others. It's a cyclical vortex of ****uppery, and focusing on a single event without considering the circumstance and reality of the converging topics will lead nowhere useful.
    That is exactly right, people get so mired in details they totally miss the big theme right under their noses.
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Metal View Post
    Excuse me? Are you serious? Other than the odd Tavor, that is what they are overwhelmingly using.
    They get them for either free or highly subsidized by US tax payers via federal aid. They are good rifles... Why not use them?

    From 1995 to 2002 Israel received another 140,000 M-16s per the info release below....so there are more than a few kicking around
    Notifications to Congress of Pending U.S. Arms Transfers for year 2002

    Country Date ...Transmission No. ....Description............. Transfer Type............... Price
    Israel 6/5/2002 unnumbered 50,000 excess M16 Rifles Excess Defense Articles...... $4,460,000

    Israel 1/23/2002 unnumbered 30,000 excess M16 rifles Excess Defense Articles .........no price listed

    Israel 11/18/1997 M16 rifles and ammunition Excess Defense Articles.................................... free
    Israel 10/10/1995 30,000 Colt M-16A1 rifles Excess Defense Articles .......................................... free
    Israel 2/15/1995 34,744 Colt M-16A1 rifles .....Excess Defense Articles ......................................free
    Last edited by fhpchris; 12-23-10 at 16:41.
    USMC vet.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    The SAS use the G36, The HK33, The G-3...
    True the British SAS have used many carbines in small numbers. Currently their their primary rifle is the C-8.

    My army buddies tell me that the special forces they have seen over in the sandbox had FN SCARs. Personally I know they have used the HK 416 and the SCAR for some time. Big surprise there hunh?
    The SCAR Mk16 progam was cancelled last summer and the HK 416 went through a forced turn in back in '08. SOCOM went back to parent service issued M4s.

  9. #39
    Dano5326 Guest
    If you weren't there... Shut your flute holster about armchair second guesses. And what some soldier should or shouldn't have done.

    And for the love of simplicity.. All shots in combat are low percentage.. Not light of day, square range, oneway, static, 19"x30" paper drills. I'm pretty sure I could get 99% of forum spewers hit percentage in the teens by mearly throwing rocks at them, in the day on a square range.

    Static defense is about the terrain, defensive positions, depth and supporting fires. Leadership decisions. The individual weapon issued is of little import.

  10. #40
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    All there is to say is wow. I had to check the website to make sure this was M4C. Isnt there another site for this?
    Ash Hess

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    Senior writer of TC 3-22.9 Rifle and Carbine
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