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Thread: AR ammo getting very, very scarce...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    You tacked this on after I posted, so I did not see it when I commented. I will say that I am very surprised to see that IMI is not on his list.
    Yeah, it just kept getting better and better so I kept adding more and more. Here is the whole thing.

    Originally posted by Troy

    Okay, for the folks who haven't read all the data which explains WHY (and I'm not going to re-hash that here for the hundredth time; if you want the "why", read the tacked posts and all related links), I'm going to break it down.

    First, a few points:

    5.56 vs. .223 loads. A "5.56" load means that the round is loaded to "military" pressures, which exceeds SAAMI's safe rating, and generally means from 120 fps (75-77gr bullets) to 200 fps (55gr bullets) additional muzzle velocity. AR-based rifles with "5.56" or Wylde chambers can fire this ammo safely. More muzzle velocity means a longer fragmentation range, so 5.56 loads are more desirable. Having said that, you are almost always better off using a better-performing bullet in a .223 load than a lesser-performing bullet in a 5.56 load.

    Generally, Open-Tip Match (OTM) bullets, also called Jacketed "Hollow-Point - Boat-Tail, Match" (JHP-BT Match) or Boat-Tail Hollow-Point, Match (BTHP Match) bullets, are the most reliable performers, as the consistancy in construction required for match accuracy also results in consistant terminal ballistic performance.


    Okay, from best to worst:

    1. Loads using the Nosler 77gr or Hornady 75gr OTM bullet. While these bullets may be slightly less accurate *in some rifles* than the Sierra MK, they offer better wounding capability. These bullets maximize terminal ballistic performance AND they extend fragmentation range over other loads, and even provide *some* fragmentation range from 10" barrels. These bullets require 1:8 or tighter twist barrels, though they may work in SOME 1:9 barrels.

    - Hornady 75gr TAP (5.56 load)
    - Hornady 75gr TAP or TAP-PD (.223 load)
    - Black Hills loads with 75gr Hornady (.223)
    - (no known factory load using the Nosler bullet)

    2. Loads using the Sierra 77gr MK. Like all MK bullets, this one doesn't start to yaw until it passes through several inches of flesh, resulting in a longer "neck" area of the wound profile, and thus being rated slightly lower than the Nosler or Hornady bullets.

    - Black Hills Mk262 Mod1 (5.56, cosmetic seconds are available)
    - Black Hills 77gr Sierra loads (.223)
    - Federal 77gr Sierra (.223)

    77grain MatchKing OTM in calibrated ballistic gelatin. Note the long "neck" before fragmentation begins.

    [graphic omitted]

    3. Loads using the 68gr Hornady OTM. Note: barrel length needs to be 14.5" or longer; these will not have enough velocity to fragment from a 10" barrel and only a couple of yards from an 11.5" barrel. 1:9 or faster twist required.

    - Hornady 68gr Match (.223)
    - Black Hills 68gr Hornady (.223)

    4. Loads using the 69gr Sierra MK. Note: barrel length needs to be 14.5" or longer; these will not have enough velocity to fragment from a 10" barrel and only a couple of yards from an 11.5" barrel. 1:9 or faster twist required.

    - Federal 69gr Sierra (.223)
    - Black Hills 69gr Sierra (.223)

    5. Loads using Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw bullets. The 62gr performs a bit better than the 55gr, but the 62gr bullet is ONLY available in the LEO-only Federal Tactical line. As a bonded-core bullet, these are excellent in situations with an intermediate barrier, and are the #1 performers when having to shoot through glass. Note: these soft-point bullets have an exposed lead tip and cannot be rechambered more than a few times. May not feed reliably in some rifles.

    Federal Tactical 62gr TBBC (.223)
    Federal Tactical 55gr TBBC (.223)
    Federal Premium 55gr TBBC (.223)

    6. Loads using the Winchester 64gr PowerPoint bullet. Note: these soft-point bullets have an exposed lead tip and cannot be rechambered more than a few times. May not feed reliably in some rifles. 1:10 or faster twist required.

    - Winchester Supreme PowerPoint Plus (.223)
    - Winchester Super-X PowerPoint (.223)

    7. M193-class ammo, 55gr FMJ-BT bullet. True M193 ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:12 or faster twist required.

    - Lake City M193 (genuine surplus M193; no longer available)
    - Federal XM193 (seconds) or XM193PD (thirds)
    - Winchester Q3131 (seconds)
    - Winchester Q3131A (manufactured by IMI)
    - IMI M193
    - PMC, '98 and earlier
    - South African M1Ax in battlepacks

    8. M855-class ammo, 62gr FMJ-BT bullet with mild steel penetrator in the nose. True M193 [sic] ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:10 or faster twist required.

    - Lake City M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
    - Winchester M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
    - Federal XM855 (seconds) or XM855PD (thirds)
    - Canadian IVI (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
    - British SS-109

    This list should give you an idea of what is preferred, and in what order.
    Obviously, many of the loads at the top are quite a bit more expensive than the loads further down (though the TBBC loads are by far the most expensive), but if you're looking just at performance, then this should be your guideline.

    I might not have gotten every load out there, but you should be able figure it out if there's a similar load that I didn't mention. [all bold added for emphasis]
    "Premium" IMI M855, even by extrapolation, would come in pretty low on this list. Caveat emptor.

    That said, it beats not having anything to shoot. Not all AR's have bayonet lugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    You tacked this on after I posted, so I did not see it when I commented. I will say that I am very surprised to see that IMI is not on his list. I am being absolutely honest when I say I had many a discussion about IMI M855, and the only drawback I heard about was the accuracy and lack of effective fragmentation. I have absolutely no explanation as to why is it absent from his list, none. I mean, even if it is no longer perceived as top quality, it should still be listed at the bottom, not completely absent like it never existed at all.
    I might not have gotten every load out there, but you should be able figure it out if there's a similar load that I didn't mention.
    Interesting that he ranked foreign material below MADE IN USA...
    Last edited by Submariner; 09-03-07 at 20:26. Reason: attribution of quote
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
    Yeah, it just kept getting better and better so I kept adding more and more. Don't be a wiseguy...Here is the whole thing.



    "Premium" IMI M855, even by extrapolation, would come in pretty low on this list. Caveat emptor. Hardly. I've shot lots of it, over 800 rounds, without incident.

    That said, it beats not having anything to shoot. Not all AR's have bayonet lugs. I see you fancy yourself as a funny guy, but I am not sold that my IMI is garbage by a long shot. Troy himself touted this ammo, often when not speaking to me. He NEVER preferred it by any means, but said it was great quality ammo. Again, he also said it was the ONLY first tier military ammo "available" for civilian purchase. Others did as well numerous times, I am certain. I would not say this here and risk ridicule if I were not certain of what I read several times there.


    Anyway, you did your homework, Submariner, I give you that.

    Still, am I to assume that IMI, who supplies a military who is always at war, supplies it's troops with bad ammo? Or, is it possible that some of what gets here is bad somehow? Maybe compareable to the previous Lake City M193/XM193PD reference? Or, do they now have a primer issue that was not there two or three years ago? Something seems amiss if they are no longer considered quality rounds.
    "Facit Omina Voluntas = The Will Decides" - Army Chief


  3. #33
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    Stock brokers "tout" stocks. And often they make us "broker".

    Lotsa' folks over there "tout" South African as well. It is allegedly one of the premier SHTF rounds. They shoot a few rounds and stash the rest for whatever in the water-proof, heavy-duty vinyl Battle Packs. Well, engaging a target at three yards and hearing "Click" instead of "Bang" is a real eye-opener. Not once but multiple times inside 25 yards.

    Got blaster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Still, am I to assume that IMI, who supplies a military who is always at war, supplies it's troops with bad ammo? Or, is it possible that some of what gets here is bad somehow? Maybe compareable to the previous Lake City M193/XM193PD reference? Or, do they now have a primer issue that was not there two or three years ago? Something seems amiss if they are no longer considered quality rounds.
    I think I asked this before. Why would the Izzies send their best here when they have mooselimbs to shoot? To make a few bucks? Hell, we GIVE them foreign/military aid!

    Troy put real LC M193 (first tier) before XM193 (second tier) and XM193PD (third tier). Same for M855. It's based on QC and what meets the standard. Do you reasonably expect IMI to produce ammo that meets spec 100% of the time. Of course not. They are not super human. Where is there a market for their not quite good enough ammo (like XM193)? Their floor sweepings (like XM193PD)? Nice military brown boxes with English, not Hebrew, printing or nice white Winchester USA boxes. It's all about marketing crap. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Last edited by Submariner; 09-03-07 at 22:00. Reason: answer later posted response
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

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