AR ammo getting very, very scarce...

[jmart]

Over 3 years ago, I joined AR15.com and also joined Gunbroker. During that first year, I participated in many, many threads about ammo and started a few of my own at least. Some of the most knowledgeable members there often spoke of boxed IMI M855 as the only first tier ammo available on the civilian market. I often questioned whether this was true, 100% non-reject, first tier ammo, as I wanted some if it was true. Never one time did anyone ever dispute that it was. Again, these were individuals who I am almost 100% certain would know. Perhaps they were all wrong?

I've read exactly the same reports that you have, and perhaps at one time it held true. But I've also recently seen a number of references by Pat that this ammo isn't anything to write home about -- popped primers being one of the recurring issues.

[Safetyhit]

Perhaps.

You insult my intelligence in your previous reply, now this lame duck response. Just brilliant.

[Safetyhit]

I've read exactly the same reports that you have, and perhaps at one time it held true. But I've also recently seen a number of references by Pat that this ammo isn't anything to write home about -- popped primers being one of the recurring issues.

At least your answer has some merit. Not sure what to think, but maybe Pat would be kind enough to add his opinion here?

[FlyAndFight]

Those must be some TINY bullets

Why, I oughta...

[Submariner]

At least your answer has some merit. Not sure what to think, but maybe Pat would be kind enough to add his opinion here?

Not Pat but what he has written is easy enough to find:

One shooter was using the made in israel, low quality Q3131A. It lived up to its shoddy reputation by popping primers at the rate of 2 or more per magazine. Heat was an aggravating factor, but the 5.56 marked chamber was in fact much smaller then that, and required a pass with the excellent Ned Christiansen Reamer.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7026

Ammo will be a problem for the foreseeable future, or until China gets nuked by the free world, whichever comes first. Wolf is starting to look better right now, especially as compared to other makes (think Q3131A and other garbage).
Having said that, if you plan on training in the next 18 months, you better have your ammo ordered or in hand pretty quick. If you request a seat in class and then don’t show up because you couldn’t get ammo, too bad, so sad. That will be your problem, and not someone else’s.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...true#Post49601

The biggest problem was with ammo. The MPD shooters were using Q3131A, which is- at best- garbage.
It has once more lived up to the quality control standards by depositing popped primers into the lower receiver, bolt gas key and gas tubes of several guns.
Mike Hueser’s loaner carbine is locked up solid, probably because of a primer in the bolt cam pin slot (something we have seen before).
I haven’t seen any ammo from that part of the world- IMI, TZZ or the 3131A that I would be happy with. The experience over the past week just validate what was already known.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...true#Post46572

If Lake City, a government facility operated by ATK, cannot release tier one ammo to the U.S. taxpayer, what makes you think that IMI, another government-controlled entity, would do so? It seems that Israel is always fighting someone. It would also seem reasonable that, like the US, they provide the best to their troops.

Absent evidence to the contrary, we have the quotes above to compare with the comments of those on gunbroker and TOS whom you cited. Who is more credible?

I drank the IMI Koolaid, too. Then after these comments by Pat and some additional research, I decided to sell the cases of Q3131A I had stashed away and go with Black Hills. This was after shooting 2700 rounds of South African in one of Pat's 3-day classes (three of us shooting it in Colts) and having at least 15 misfires with solid primer strikes from one particular lot.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've transitioned my carbine practice to the AK-74 pattern guns - saves quite a bit on ammo these days.

[Safetyhit]

Not Pat but what he has written is easy enough to find:



If Lake City, a government facility operated by ATK, cannot release tier one ammo to the U.S. taxpayer, what makes you think that IMI, another government-controlled entity, would do so? I told you exactly why I think so and where I got my information.It seems that Israel is always fighting someone. It would also seem reasonable that, like the US, they provide the best to their troops.Yes, it would.

Absent evidence to the contrary, we have the quotes above to compare with the comments of those on gunbroker and TOS whom you cited. Who is more credible?Of course Pat is credible, but so are many others on TOS as well. Again, I listened to those that had the experience to make the statement. Just one of those was a very well known member there who's screenname refers to an ancient city that was breached by a giant wooden horse. He said he was absolutely certain that boxed IMI M855 was first tier ammo. I asked for clarification and got it on several occasions to my satisfaction, and so naturally I was convinced. Why would I have doubted he or the others with so many saying the same thing?

I drank the IMI Koolaid, too. Then after these comments by Pat and some additional research, I decided to sell the cases of Q3131A I had stashed away and go with Black Hills. I am not referring to Q3131A, never was.This was after shooting 2700 rounds of South African in one of Pat's 3-day classes (three of us shooting it in Colts) and having at least 15 misfires with solid primer strikes from one particular lot.

You may be right, but you have not proven that here. Again, IMI Q3131A was never the topic of my discussions, boxed IMI M855 was. While the manufacturer may be the same, I doubt that IMI first tier ammo has a general issue with primers. As you say, they are at war all the time and that would likely not be tolerated. Pat could have been referring to a batch or batches. Look at Lake City M193, XM193 and XM193PD. All supposed to be of a different quality, but all from the same plant.

[Submariner]

You may be right, but you have not proven that here.

Nor have you, sir. Troy is your expert witness. Fine. This one has has come to a different conclusion based on his experience, "I haven’t seen any ammo from that part of the world- IMI [emphasis added], TZZ or the 3131A that I would be happy with."

If you are doing more than making ammo forts and unless you have a metric buttload of "premium" IMI stashed away, you will have to replace it at some point.

With what? That is the real question, eh?

This just in!

Originally posted by Troy:

Okay, from best to worst:
…
7. M193-class ammo, 55gr FMJ-BT bullet. True M193 ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:12 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M193 (genuine surplus M193; no longer available)
- Federal XM193 (seconds) or XM193PD (thirds)
- Winchester Q3131 (seconds)
- Winchester Q3131A (manufactured by IMI)
- IMI M193
- PMC, '98 and earlier
- South African M1Ax in battlepacks

8. M855-class ammo, 62gr FMJ-BT bullet with mild steel penetrator in the nose. True M193 [sic] ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:10 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Winchester M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Federal XM855 (seconds) or XM855PD (thirds)
- Canadian IVI (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- British SS-109

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=185

I don't see boxed IMI M855 on Troy's list. Do you?

[Safetyhit]

Nor have you, sir. Troy is your expert witness. Fine. This one has has come to a different conclusion based on his experience, "I haven’t seen any ammo from that part of the world- IMI [emphasis added], TZZ or the 3131A that I would be happy with."

If you are doing more than making ammo forts and unless you have a metric buttload of "premium" IMI stashed away, you will have to replace it at some point.

With what? That is the real question, eh?

I never said Troy was my only point of reference, just one of many. And alot of people don't like M855 because of what I heard was a lesser accuracy and non-fragmentation. Your trying hard, though.

Guess my only good ammo is my 5.56 TAP, MK262, Black Hills .223 75gr and 77gr., and XM193. Have lots of those as well. I suppose I'll take my many rounds of brand new boxed IMI M855 and get to building that fort.

[Safetyhit]

I don't see boxed IMI M855 on Troy's list. Do you?

You tacked this on after I posted, so I did not see it when I commented. I will say that I am very surprised to see that IMI is not on his list. I am being absolutely honest when I say I had many a discussion about IMI M855, and the only drawback I heard about was the accuracy and lack of effective fragmentation. I have absolutely no explanation as to why is it absent from his list, none. I mean, even if it is no longer perceived as top quality, it should still be listed at the bottom, not completely absent like it never existed at all.