Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 41

Thread: storing a short barreled upper on a stripped lower?

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,512
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by cj5_dude View Post
    There's nothing illegal about owning a stripped lower in the same house as a upper with a barrel shorter than 16 inches. There's no way to tell if he's building a pistol or a rifle. If he attaches something to the lower to make it an SBR or to the upper to make it an AOW then he's done something he shouldn't......but until then all he has is a stripped lower and a pistol upper.

    NO CRIME.
    It's called possession. Possession takes the big "intent" human honesty factor out of the equation. When you possess the parts, always assume they think they know your intent. This is silliness.
    If you possess an SBR upper, you better have at least one registered lower with it, or NO lowers. There is a WEALTH of factual info on TOS about this exact thing. Read and learn.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    246
    Feedback Score
    6 (100%)
    Unless he decides to build a pistol out of the lower with a shorter than 16" upper.

    I'm done with this pissing match, there's no reason he can't have a bare lower with a pistol upper. Find me case law that shows an ATF case where someone was guilty of possessing an NFA weapons mearely because they had the parts in the same house. And by that I mean find me a case of US vs Billy Badass, not a story on the internet that is written by Joe Snuffy who heard about Billy Badass' run in with the law.

    If it were illegal to have a stripped lower and a pistol upper in the same place then the ATF would be doing dozens of raids on gun shops who happen to sell both of those. It's like saying someone with a hacksaw and a shotgun has intent to build a SBS, or someone who has plumbing equipment, nails, and black powder in the same house is planning to build a pipe bomb. All you have there is a blackpowder enthusiast who does his own home repair.

    I think the internet has gone a little overboard with "constructive intent" and people have gotten to be way too paranoid. I'm sure people have been arrested for having constructive intent, but I'm willing to bet that those people took a significant step towards the assembly of a weapon they shouldn't have.....and simply owning parts that are legal to own is not a significant step.
    Last edited by cj5_dude; 12-30-10 at 00:49.
    Police work: If it were easy it would be called your mom.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    414
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Something to consider here: since the stripped lower has no stock on it, it cannot be considered a rifle. The easiest thing to do, which is what I did, was build a pistol, and SBR a lower at a later date. Get a pistol tube and don't worry about it.
    30 caliber junkie.

    God Bless America.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    hampton roads VA
    Posts
    397
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    There is no actual laws dealing with constructive intent. IT DOES NOT EXIST. This is a figment of a paranoid persons mind. If the law worked the way the constructive intent people believe you would be charged with murder for simply owning a gun, or burglary for owning a screw driver, possession of a machine gun for owning a firing pin that could maybe be used to manufacture a M-16. It simply does not work that way. There is no portion of the law that allows a person to be charged with a crime because they might commit a crime.

    Matt

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    152
    Feedback Score
    0
    I'd invite you to refresh yourself with this Supreme Court case:

    http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

    Be Safe!

    Heavyweight

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    4,079
    Feedback Score
    15 (100%)
    I'm slightly disappointed by the manner in which some of the follow-on discussion developed, but let's get this back to the OP's question: is it, or is it not, a problem to store a stripped receiver on an NFA upper?

    Disregarding for a moment that there is no practical reason for doing so, it comes to this: a stripped AR-15 lower, barring any additional registration action, is considered to be a rifle receiver in the eyes of the law. If you wish to build a pistol, then you need to specifically purchase a receiver that is listed and transfered as such. It makes no difference whether the receiver itself is stripped, or in an advanced state of completion, and the lack of a buttstock does not give you grounds upon which to argue that you intended to build a pistol all along.

    What troubles me about threads like these is the fact that NFA law is confusing enough without exploring boundaries which serve no larger purpose. We know for certain that we can mate an SBR upper to an SBR lower. We know that we cannot mate an SBR upper to a non-SBR lower. We know that AR pistols are a distinctly different class of firearm, notwithstanding the fact that they remain technically compatible with all rifle and SBR parts. Legally speaking, when an NFA upper is involved, you must go back to the lower and consider how it is registered. "Other" is simply not a valid classification here.

    Constructive intent or no, we're still pissing in the wind to some degree, and whether or not a federal agent would ever show up at your home and examine the contents of your safe is a moot point. NFA ownership involves an attendant obligation to be very clear on the finer points of the law, and that level of knowledge generally precludes doing things like bolting stripped (non-SBR) lowers to NFA uppers.

    I don't say this to make anyone feel foolish, but rather to reinforce the importance of knowing what "right looks like," and acting accordingly, rather than looking for potential loopholes in the law. Don't ask if you are doing it wrong ... just make absolutely certain that you are doing it right.

    AC

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    246
    Feedback Score
    6 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    Disregarding for a moment that there is no practical reason for doing so, it comes to this: a stripped AR-15 lower, barring any additional registration action, is considered to be a rifle receiver in the eyes of the law. If you wish to build a pistol, then you need to specifically purchase a receiver that is listed and transfered as such.
    I have an argument with that statement. When you buy a stripped lower and fill out the paperwork there are 3 options for the store clerk to check.

    1. Pistol
    2. Rifle
    3. Other/Reciever

    So the lower should be transfered as a reciever. It is not seen in the eyes of the ATF as a pistol or as a rifle but only as a bare reciever, nothing more.

    For that reason, a person cannot go to an out of state FFL to get the reciever transfered to them as they could if it were a rifle. The ATF recognizes that a reciever can be eventually turned into either a pistol or a rifle, and since out of state pistol transfers are a no-no they cannot transfer a reciever.

    So back on topic, the OP can indeed legally own a bare reciever and an AR-15 upper with a barrel shorter than 16 inches in the same residence. Just because the upper has a barrel on it that is shorter than 16 inches does not make it an NFA item, and having it in proximity of a reicever which is registered as a reciever does not make it an NFA item. I have yet to see facts that state otherwise.
    Police work: If it were easy it would be called your mom.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    533
    Feedback Score
    0
    Disregarding for a moment that there is no practical reason for doing so, it comes to this: a stripped AR-15 lower, barring any additional registration action, is considered to be a rifle receiver in the eyes of the law. If you wish to build a pistol, then you need to specifically purchase a receiver that is listed and transfered as such. It makes no difference whether the receiver itself is stripped, or in an advanced state of completion, and the lack of a buttstock does not give you grounds upon which to argue that you intended to build a pistol all along.
    I am not trying to argumentantive and really did post this to get the right information. I do not already have my mind made up and will err on the side of caution which at this point seems to be not to do it. However I was under the impression that the above statement was absolutely not the case. I was led to believe that a stripped lower was NOT considered a rifle and was reflected as this since it was transfered as a "other" and required an age of 21 to purchase since it could legally be made into a pistol. My original question, though not worded well, was more to the point of when and how the "other"(not rifle) reciever lost its "other" classification.

    For clarity. AFAIK It is perfectly legal to buy a stripped "other" recever and assemble as a pistol. It is also completely an obviously legal to assemble as a rifle. I believe that I can add a pistol buffer, grip, internals then an upper and have legally made a pistol. I can also so the same as a rifle with stock, grip, ect. So when does it loose its "other" status. Does it automatically become a rifle when any assembly is done (such as adding upper), does it remain an "other" untill the buffer tube has been added confirming its role, will it still be considered an "other" with upper parts but no assembly completed on the lower?

    That was my question in a nutshell. If my entire question if flawed I understand that none of that applies.

    I really wish Mr. Noveske would respond as he deals with this kind of stuff regularly, and reading his explanations on NFA and how it applies to lowers has helped me understand things better.
    You can never make anyting idiot-proof, whenever you get close they just build a better idiot.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    533
    Feedback Score
    0
    also at the time I started writing the last post of mine cj5's post was not up so if I repeated him I am srry
    You can never make anyting idiot-proof, whenever you get close they just build a better idiot.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    3,459
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    A stripped receiver cannot be a rifle or a pistol, per the definition of each under the law. Frames or Receivers transfer as "other" for this reason.

    To the OP: If your lower transferred as other and has never had a stock attached and if you do not have a rifle stock or receiver extension around then you are fine. You did not make an SBR or have the parts to show intent to make one.

    If you are extra paranoid then get a pistol buffer tube for your lower and a letter from the lower manufacturer that your lower was never assembled as a rifle.

    I'd recommend you build it up as a pistol before you submit the F1 so you can shoot it and make sure there isn't something out of spec with the lower.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •