Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 340

Thread: Designated Marksman discussion thread

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Sacramento
    Posts
    2,317
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)

    Designated Marksman discussion thread

    The Designated Marksman came into his own during the GWOT; DMs are considered to be regular infantrymen who are tasked to provide precision fire out to 600m. By default, most have been armed with 5.56 AR derivatives, since that was what was available. However, the Army also issued M14s due to the 5.56 rounds' percieved lack of range and striking energy, while the Marines are fully fielding the Mk12. The Army also issues DMs everything from M4s with ACOGs to the latest mod of EBR. Several of our European allies, such as the Brits, have decided that a semi-auto 7.62 is needed for the DM role, and have adopted an AR10 varient for the task.

    So, let's hear your thoughts on what a proper DM rifle should be: caliber, barrel length, optics, etc.
    "The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage." - Thucydides, c. 410 BC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    42
    Feedback Score
    0
    Talking to the guys in my company who carried the EBR in Afghanistan last year, almost all of them disliked it for one reason or another. I do not know how old/new they were. One problem with an m14 based solution is that they had to keep and maintain two rifles and the m14s rarely were taken on missions because of weight and bulk and a perceived lack of need.

    Our battalion gave ours back (away?) so I'm not sure what we will replace them with, if anything.

    I'd prefer something like the mk12 in an intermediate caliber. With a 1-6 power optic please.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    503
    Feedback Score
    0
    I think 1 of 2 options: either an 18" barreled AR with a DD Lite rail, A5 stock and a compact scope (ACOG to Nightforce 2.5X10X36 or something in between).

    Or...

    The LMT MWS with a decent optic.

    I'll not mention any other caliber (besides 5.56 or 7.62) because that just isn't going to happen.
    "The world's a dangerous place – we can help." -www.portlandfirearmtraining.com
    NRA LE Handgun-Shotgun Instructor/Life Member

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    1,208
    Feedback Score
    17 (100%)
    I was my platoon's SDM for my first 2 months or so in-country, before I was "promoted" to SAW gunner. I went to LRM (Long Range Marksmanship) school at Ft Campbell, taught by instructors from Benning, for 3 weeks of instruction covering shooting, range estimation, and target detection. Our issue rifle was an M14 "upgraded" with a Sage EBR chassis and a 7.62 ACOG. Of course I had to use a 5.56 M4 ACOG because someone managed to break our 7.62 model previously. Luckily, when I got overseas I managed to acquire a TPE (Theatre Provided Equipment) 10X fixed Leupold. I had previously privately purchased 6 M14 mags and a Harris Bipod as I was told I'd be the SDM for the entire tour and was only supplied with 3 mags and a Grip-pod. There was no supply of M118LR to be had so I had to delink belted M80 ball. It was still plenty accurate out to 600M or so, and probably could have pushed it further, but had limited range time and I was just glad to get it zeroed. The only thing else that was added was a PEQ-2A. While I loved the M14, after handling another TPE M14 with an original Walnut stock I realized just how much heavier the EBR stock was and would dream on one day having something lighter (my prayers were answered with a M249, FML). To complicate matters, we weren't allowed to take them apart to clean them because they were afraid we'd lose or damage the EBR chassis, so all my cleaning was done with a boresnake, some Q-tips, and a barber brush.

    I think the Brits have it right, the LMT .308 with the right optic and training would be an ideal SDM weapon. It's accurate, reliable, and not too bulky. It is heavy, but you can't have everything, esp in 7.62x51. Plus an ACOG properly calibrated and zeroed can get hits on target fast without having to get all the training on mil-dots and worrying about DOPE, remember SDM's aren't snipers and aren't supposed to be snipers, we're grunts with a little talent and training, that's all.


    Last edited by kaltesherz; 12-31-10 at 19:46.
    PRAISE THE FALLEN
    SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08
    1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08
    Cpl Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08
    Spc Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09
    PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,147
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Kalte maybe you mentioned t an I missed it but were you in afganistan or Iraq?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    RVA
    Posts
    1,931
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    I like 3rd ID's concept from early OIF and consequently built one just like it. For what's available the M110 SASS seems perfect for the role, maybe with a different optic with less magnification.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    1,208
    Feedback Score
    17 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Kalte maybe you mentioned t an I missed it but were you in afganistan or Iraq?
    I was in Afghanistan 2008-2009, that might be an important detail to leave out...

    I forgot to mention that later on in the tour our Brigade was issued freshly refirbed M14's with the newer type EBR stock (adjustable cheek wield and length), Leupold M3A's, 7 brand new spanking mags, harris bi-pod, and a bunch of M118LR. When they showed up in country every platoon was told to pick one guy to send to Bagram to be issued the "package" and then spend 3 days in a relaxed SDM class of just shooting at various ranges from 100-800m (no target detection or range estimation). Since my section had previously sent me to SDM training stateside and I had already been on a Bagram vacation to MRAP school they sent another good shooter in the other section. When he came back to us he would switch from M4 to M14 depending on the mission, and it was usually left up to him to decide what he was going to hump.

    As an SDM you're still a grunt, and there were a few times when I had to clear rooms, guard prisoners, and other tasks where the size and optic were far from desirable. While I was lucky to get 3 weeks of school taught by excellent instructors, the ideal SDM weapon needs to have a simple enough operation and optic that any squared-away trigger puller can be taught how to properly utilize it with minimal training. The ACOG isn't perfect, but it's extremely easy and fast to use for both ranging and hitting targets, and is MUCH more durable than a variable mil-dot optic. I've seen two Leupolds quickly ruined by poor handling that wouldn't have even caused a loss of zero on an ACOG.

    A good SDM rifle isn't supposed to be sexy, it's supposed to be make an infantryman with minimal training effective to 600m. It's not about what would be the best rifle that YOU would shoot well in a perfect environment. It's not a range toy. It's going to be beaten to shit in the armory in garrison, let alone in theatre.

    The LMT .308 would be a familiar operating system / maintenance with accuracy potential and durability. Throw a TA-11H / bipod on it and it's good to go.
    PRAISE THE FALLEN
    SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08
    1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08
    Cpl Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08
    Spc Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09
    PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Southern Command
    Posts
    1,909
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    There is really no "one" rifle that would meet the requirements for a DM. If you look at the operating envelope for extending the range of the basic assault rifle or battle rifle then I think the optic determines the capability. With a variable power optic either 5.56 or 7.62 with a barrel from 16-18" makes sense. The current offerings of 7.62 rifle is fantastic of late with the SCAR 17, LMT MWS, Knights SR25.

    So a 5.56 with a free floated match barrel of 16-18", a quality variable optic from 1-8+ power, an improved trigger, or a 7.62 caliber weapon equipped the same way would easily fulfill the SDM role, obviously a supply of good OTM ammo would enable the user to get the most out of the weapon.

    It is great to have so many choices.

    Cameron
    Last edited by Cameron; 12-31-10 at 20:13.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wakanda
    Posts
    18,863
    Feedback Score
    4 (100%)

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by kaltesherz View Post
    I think the Brits have it right, the LMT .308 with the right optic and training would be an ideal SDM weapon. It's accurate, reliable, and not too bulky. It is heavy, but you can't have everything, esp in 7.62x51. Plus an ACOG properly calibrated and zeroed can get hits on target fast without having to get all the training on mil-dots and worrying about DOPE, remember SDM's aren't snipers and aren't supposed to be snipers, we're grunts with a little talent and training, that's all.
    The first time I saw the L129A1 I thought the same thing. I look forward to hearing the AAR's from the Brits.
    "In a nut shell, if it ever goes to Civil War, I'm afraid I'll be in the middle 70%, shooting at both sides" — 26 Inf


    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN's Don Lemon 10/30/18

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    5,117
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    AAR's so far have been very good with some very long range confirmed engagements using the 16" SST barrel and the 6x acog's.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •