Designated Marksman discussion thread

[Ash Hess]

One of the members here, DMR, had an article published in Infantry magazine on this very subject. I am sure he will weigh in shortly.

For our SDM's we are using M16A4's with the ACOG. Last deployment, we had M14 EBR's that were used with great success. We made them the SDM's primary weapon to lessen the burden. I dont know if we will get the M14's again this deployment.
As with all else the skill is more important than the Tool. To build fundamentals, we had The Appleseed Project run a week long course for our SDM's. Appleseed is very suited for this task. Fundamentals focusing on hitting targets out to 500 yards.

The SDM is simply the long range shooter in the Squad. Basically, he has "deep" but he also has to be able to run any mission. You can not lose him as a member of the Squad.

[Slab]

[QUOTE=kjdoski;863261]I've been VERY impressed with the results we've gotten so far with our Mk17s. The "modular" nature of them makes them a winning choice, IMHO. With the CQB barrel installed, and a 7.62 EoTech, they're still light (only 8-10 pounds, depending on what you hang on it) and handy enough to work inside buildings and vehicles (this is the configuration we use most often). Recoil is considerably heavier than 5.56, as is muzzle blast, but neither are beyond the limits of a moderately trained rifleman to use effectively in CQB. When we shoot the VTAC "1/2, 1/2, 1/2 Drill," most of the guys on my team have no trouble holding solid hits and making the time for 10 rounds in 2.5 seconds from the ready at 5 yards. We also have no trouble at all popping 5" balloons at the 300 yard line with the same set up...

With the standard barrel installed with ELCANs, and using the right ammunition, it's easy for my guys to lay down accurate fire to 600 meters. Further out than that, IMHO, you'd need the long barrel, and a dedicated "precision" optic.

The beauty of the SCAR, in my experience, is it can be reconfigured from the CQB role to the DMR role in 5-10 minutes. We've found that zero-shift from optics switch is basically nill with the EoTechs, and the ELCANs hold close enough for government work - though they're not as "tight" as the EoTechs...

Yes, the SCARs have warts - heat management, operating handle placement and shape/size, and the design of the ambi mag release being the three most common complaints we have - but, overall, I think it's a pretty darned good piece of kit.

Regards,

Kevin,

Just out of curiosity have you folks noticed any zero shift with the ELCAN when the magnification was changed? There was a PJ at the last class that had one and when the magnification was changed, there was a significant POI shift (at 100yds)...

[wild_wild_wes]

For our SDM's we are using M16A4's with the ACOG. Last deployment, we had M14 EBR's that were used with great success.

So, what do you think of the 5.56 vs. 7.62 issue?

The SDM is simply the long range shooter in the Squad. Basically, he has "deep" but he also has to be able to run any mission. You can not lose him as a member of the Squad.

This would seem to factor in favor of the 5.56. Some posters above have advanced the desirability of the SR25/Mk11/M110 for the DM role, but it seems to me like it is too big, heavy, and distinctive to give to a regular infantryman; the SR25 EMC/Mk17 might work, however. On TOS a while back a Ranger gave a detailed evaluation of his Mk17 and its use in his unit; in training he said guys were getting hits at 900m with the standard light 16" barrel and SpecterDR combo.

[Ash Hess]

Wes, for the 7.62 vs 5.56 debate, I have been lucky I guess because everytime I have seen hits on target with both rounds, the targets hasn't got up. I have however seen some long firefights where a lot of ammo gets expended. The M16A4 with MK262 as the primary load, can still fire green tip from a standard rifleman.
So for a Regular unit, far from the base on Patrol with minimum support, I prefer 5.56. Logistically, it makes more sense. Yes I can delink rounds from the "most casualty producing weapon" to feed my 7.62 SDM rifle. Or I can select a rifle that, in average hands, delivers the same effects, AKA removing threats, that reduces my tail.

The average Soldier with minimum training is not more effective with a bigger round. A miss is a miss. As I stated, every target I have seen hit with both rounds has ceased to be a threat. I will leave the scientific stuff for the errornet

[ALCOAR]

Excellent reply U.S.Cavalryman.

[One Shot]

Here's a throwback for all of you. Back in 1968 I trained with the M-14 rifle. The basic M-14 worked well out to 500 or more yards if you did your job. And many times we did not use scopes because all of us were supposed to be normal American riflemen, not limited to 300 yards like most foreign military systems believe in. Had an M-16 in Airborne AIT and for my early months in Viet Nam. The second part of my tour in Nam I got to go to Sniper School at An Khe and was issued the scoped XM-21 rifle for sniping. This rifle once everything was tuned to the high quality (National Match) ammo and the user's eyes could reach out to 900 meters and do the job. Shooting with the XM-21 out to 750 meters all day long was nothing.

My suggestion would be for a good DM rifle would be to think about a good M-14 with a scope and bi-pod mounted on it. Use high quality ammo when you can. Also get a copy of the old Sniper Manual and study that very carefully. Notice how the rifle is situated on the user's shoulder and think about why that was done that way. Can you do the same with an AR-10 or M-4? Probably not unless you come up with a new rear stock of some sort. The key is to lock into the rifle very tightly so that you become one with the rifle which is why they used the stock like that. Once you have a standard M-14 set up and properly zeroed, you should then be able to hit just about anything from zero to 600 meters with no sweat at all. Heck, sometimes you might even need to open your eyes just for the fun of it.

Oh, and the scopes we used in Nam were the 3 by 9 variable power Redfield MART or ART (Military Automatic Range Tracking or Automatic Range Tracking) scopes. The shooters and the equipment was set up for good and decent body shots. In other words, we were trying to shots on a silhouette that were inside of a box about 8.5 inches wide by about 14 inches in height. We weren't going for index card size rectangles at unrealistic distances. We wanted a good, clean center punch shot when we could get it. This was the first time I heard the phrases of "finite shooting" and "combat accuracy." Finite shooting is being able to hit the tip of a match at 25 yards and set it to burning. Combat accuracy is being able to deliver a center punch shot on target from zero to 900 meters with an XM-21 rifle and high quality ammo. In the situations you all seem to be talking about, your combat accuracy needs can be easily met with a scoped M-14 or M-1A shooting from zero to700 meters.

I would almost bet a month's pay that a good M-14/M-1A will do a better job than most AR-10 rifles or the smaller caliber .223 rifles.

Where I have a doubt is has anybody done any serious work using the 6.8 SPC rifle with high quality ammo and decent scopes? Could the 6.8 SPC be turned into something really useful for our people?

[Ash Hess]

The Hard part is training. The Army standard is 5 of 6 rounds in a 4 Cm circle. This converts to a little over an inch and a half. Or 6 MOA. That is the minimum level of training. So even if you handed out an .5 minute gun, your shooter is only capable of hitting a target at max 400. So you test, train, and equip your better shooters. Now you have limited resources as to trained personnel. R and R takes 2-3 Soldiers out of a platoon per month.
So we hold a standard of a 4 MOA group or 1 inch at 25 from the prone. This set the standards high enough to in theory to hit a 20 inch target at 500. Then we groom for there.
Compatibility and training are more important than the rifle.

[Kfgk14]

Switch our SPR/DMR rifles (as well as all our other rifles/carbines) over to 6.5 Grendel bullets in necked up 5.56 casings. DMR weapons ought have an A5 stock, LW-50 stainless barrel (.750 profile the whole length, dimpled for weight savings), flip up front/rear sights (MA-tech rear BUIS, rail-mounted flip up front sight), give the user his choice of optic. Rail should be a Troy TRX-E so that the operator can put accessories where he likes. Leave the pistol grip up to the operator too. LaRue-mounted Harris bipod.
Issue Pmags.
Make sure that the operator can get proper optics, NV, spare parts, and ammo.

But I'm just one guy, never been there or done that, just my opinion based on my range time.

[Todd.K]

My suggestion would be for a good DM rifle would be to think about a good M-14 with a scope and bi-pod mounted on it.

Notice how the rifle is situated on the user's shoulder and think about why that was done that way.

That is what I kept in the trunk for the most part. Too long, too heavy, too slow with the big scope, poor scope mounts, no spare parts, no mags, no way to get a cheekweld with the original stock designed for irons. The new stocks might be better for a cheekweld but they add weight.

[Coleslaw]

So no support for the weapon is what you are primarily saying?