What are you training for?

[thermocafe]

My mil and leo days are behind me now, and as you said, the focus changes radically. It took me quite a long time to "let go" of those mentalities and reformulate a more appropriate mindset.

Leaving out the fun or enjoyment aspect of hi grade tactical training and looking strictly thru a needs-based lens, I think as a previous poster pointed out, the ability to think quickly and clearly on your feet and to apply fundamental principles is significantly more important. As a reference, consider all the murder and mayhem done to LEOs and our fighting men by essentially street thugs without the latest and greatest GI Joe / Ninja training. Not to say we should admire such street thugs, but I think we can and should learn from and know our enemies, whether that's some Talibarn dude 10,000 miles away, or a drug-addict breaking into your house to steal something to buy drugs with. The point being, some real hi-speed tactical training is sometimes bested by street thugs upon whom such hi-speed tactics may miss the point entirely. So as a private citizen, it is at least plausible that such training (leaving out the fun aspect) might not best fit a needs analysis...

Back in the 80's, the poorly equipped Afghan muhj defeated one of the greatest superpowers the world has ever known (the Russkies) and they did it with worn out, 100+ year old rifles and pure determination. I challenge anyone to show me how far to the left a Lee-Enfield rifle would be on "the Chart". But their determination made up the difference. So it goes even with our own Founding Fathers. Our Founders made a few mods that fit the situation, and our determination led us to a totally new approach to warfare that secured the birth of our Nation.

Have you seen the Top 10 list of crime guns? No BCMs, no DDs, no SIG, no HK, no Glock (last I knew, anyway - I heard this might be upcoming, though). Anyways, lots of worthless street thugs with no GI Joe / Ninja training continue to inflict injury and death on Warfighters, LEOs and private citizens every year. Take a gander at the UCR for the last several years, and sadly a lot of mistakes seem to get repeated. What good is the highest speed 4-man house-clearing training if you are defending wife and child?

Easy to Monday-morning-quarterback, I know. But it's just like the range thread has pointed out, a thorough, critical thinking-thru of what you're facing will produce excellent results.

For example, in a real "SHTF" situation, do you really want to draw attention to the fact you're armed and have enough food and water to be surviving in a single place, while others are starving and looking for food/weapons/ammo/victims, etc?

Or if not in a SHTF scenario, then what is the purpose of having the ability to place shots of "adequate caliber" on a man at 800 meters? Would a head shot from cover at 800 meters really stand up in court as "self-defense"? Or is it just the hidden desire to run with those who have a genuine need for such an ability? Kind of an escape from the reality of continuing deterioration to our culture?

(again, this all pre-supposes a private, non-LEO, non-mil situation)

A brilliant question! As things are progressing the way they seem to be, it seems critical analysis is becoming more and more significant in its absence.

[BrianS]

Not to get too sidetracked, but what the hell is a barbermonger? sarcastic:

I looked it up.

I'm not sure I'm tracking you?

Believe he meant it ticks off libs that guys are armed and out there training in the use of said arms.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I train to protect, and work with one other person. (Significant other)

In event of a flood, or prolonged power outage. In both of which, would result in SHTF. Primarily, a CCW encounter near my vehicle, which would be me using my pistol to fight to my rifle. Home invasions as well. My emphasis on rifles comes from me being NEAR rifles all the time.

My rifles are configured primarily for CQB as that's what would be most likely, but are well capable for combat at 600m. Not that I think I'd ever need it.

Not that I think it'd ever happen: If I need to get out of dodge, due to prolonged power outage SHTF situation or something crazy, and I get shot at, at least I know I can hit them, regardless of realistic distance.

Most of my equipment is also setup for low light, as my house is pretty dark, and in a flood or power outage, I'd expect lights to be pretty scarce.

I wouldn't be training for 4 man CQB ops, because I'll never do it. One or two man (at most) room clearing at home, or around a vehicle, or inside a gas station. Which IMO, are the two most likely places I could ever get drawn on. Home or at a gas station/liquor store. With bystanders nearby. (I don't drink though, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway.)

If I need a reality check, help me out.

[Treehopr]

As a reference, consider all the murder and mayhem done to LEOs and our fighting men by essentially street thugs without the latest and greatest GI Joe / Ninja training....The point being, some real hi-speed tactical training is sometimes bested by street thugs upon whom such hi-speed tactics may miss the point entirely. So as a private citizen, it is at least plausible that such training (leaving out the fun aspect) might not best fit a needs analysis...

Consider how many more "street thugs without the latest and greatest GI Joe / Ninja training" would be successful if the good guys didn't have hi-speed tactics. Can a bad guy get the drop on a highly trained individual or team? Sure, but how often do bad guys get shut down because the good guys have better training?

I can't remember the name but there's an officer with LAPD's SIS who's been in something like 60+ gunfights and won all of them- that's not luck.

Or consider the Miami FBI or North Hollywood Bank Robbery shoot outs. Sometimes the bad guys do show up with GI Joe/Ninja training and equipment...

Back in the 80's, the poorly equipped Afghan muhj defeated one of the greatest superpowers the world has ever known (the Russkies) and they did it with worn out, 100+ year old rifles and pure determination.

Along with Stinger AA and Milan anti-tank missiles. And AK's bought from China. And billions of dollars funneled in from the US, Saudi Arabia and other countries.

[Treehopr]

If you can't do it with 15 rounds from a Glock 22 or 8 shots of 9 pellet 00 buck (or rifled slugs) it's a real SHTF situation .
Now I might get some heat for this but here it goes. For most "normal" guys I would not suggest a AR15 type rifle for home defense. There it is I said it and I'm not sorry. Reason being is that I think that a pistol or pump-action shotgun is better suited for this particular situation of a home invasion (especially at night when you're half asleep). Both a shotgun and pistol in my opinion are a "defensive" firearm to the core. I'll say for the sake of argument that a AR15 is an "offensive" firearm due to magazine capacity, can engage targets at a greater range, etc. That being said I do like having a rifle when assaulting a residence with a barricaded subject inside or when a more precise shot(s) is needed.

What are you basing this opinion on?

[iCarbine]

I didn't mean to imply that "fun" was the primary reason for seeking quality training. However, if you don't enjoy it, I doubt you'll learn much from it.

I agree that law enforcement should be contacted ASAP. In my situation, I live in a housing edition outside of town and fall under the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office. The kicker is, we live way out in the corner of the county and I haven't the slightest idea what the response time will be. I'm not very confident in rapid response times anywhere. While at work one night, we needed an ambulance and it took 8 minutes with the fire station just across the street! It may take 20 minutes or more to get an ambulance to my house. Thankfully, both my wife and I are medical professionals, and, needless to say, we may be on our own for some time.

I also believe that gear is less important than mindset, skill and tactics. As long as your stuff works, you can learn the rest, as long as you're willing.

[NavyDavy55]

I'm a uniformed Reserve Deputy Sheriff and train mostly with my G21SF handgun. I train to protect myself and those around me. I believe it's important to learn as much as possible concerning any subject I am interested in. And even though we don't carry AR's when working details, I still want to be competent with every weapon I own. That's a goal I'm still working on!

[mick610]

Originally Posted by red_star_republic
"If you can't do it with 15 rounds from a Glock 22 or 8 shots of 9 pellet 00 buck (or rifled slugs) it's a real SHTF situation .
Now I might get some heat for this but here it goes. For most "normal" guys I would not suggest a AR15 type rifle for home defense. There it is I said it and I'm not sorry. Reason being is that I think that a pistol or pump-action shotgun is better suited for this particular situation of a home invasion (especially at night when you're half asleep). Both a shotgun and pistol in my opinion are a "defensive" firearm to the core. I'll say for the sake of argument that a AR15 is an "offensive" firearm due to magazine capacity, can engage targets at a greater range, etc. That being said I do like having a rifle when assaulting a residence with a barricaded subject inside or when a more precise shot(s) is needed"

I think I'm with Treehopr on this one. Despite having fired over 280,000 rounds of .40 in my "training PISTOLS" in the last 14 years, and being an avid shotgun sports shooter, IF I could only have one gun for defense, I would run with my AR (set up for me) and leave the pistols/shotguns behind. Even with 20 round mags it would be more effective against several types of targets and engagements.
What could be more defensive that a rapid fire, high capacity, short RIFLE if you get caught having to defend your position from an unknown number of assailants or ???

[Jeff Franz]

I train because in the event I am put into a two-way range situation, however unlikely that may be, I believe in the old cliche - you will not rise to the occasion, you will fall to your level of proficiency. I train because there are a lot of bad people out there, and no matter how hard you try, you can't always avoid them. I train because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. I train because if I ever had to put down a bad guy intent on doing someone harm, I'd sleep like a baby at night. But if I put down an innocent bystander in attempting to do so, I would never be able to live with myself. I train because the price pales in comparison to the cost of losing a loved one because I was not prepared. And, lastly, I train because I enjoy it and have met a lot of great folks that have taught me a lot about shooting and mindset.

[red_star_republic]

Originally Posted by red_star_republic
"If you can't do it with 15 rounds from a Glock 22 or 8 shots of 9 pellet 00 buck (or rifled slugs) it's a real SHTF situation .
Now I might get some heat for this but here it goes. For most "normal" guys I would not suggest a AR15 type rifle for home defense. There it is I said it and I'm not sorry. Reason being is that I think that a pistol or pump-action shotgun is better suited for this particular situation of a home invasion (especially at night when you're half asleep). Both a shotgun and pistol in my opinion are a "defensive" firearm to the core. I'll say for the sake of argument that a AR15 is an "offensive" firearm due to magazine capacity, can engage targets at a greater range, etc. That being said I do like having a rifle when assaulting a residence with a barricaded subject inside or when a more precise shot(s) is needed"

I think I'm with Treehopr on this one. Despite having fired over 280,000 rounds of .40 in my "training PISTOLS" in the last 14 years, and being an avid shotgun sports shooter, IF I could only have one gun for defense, I would run with my AR (set up for me) and leave the pistols/shotguns behind. Even with 20 round mags it would be more effective against several types of targets and engagements.
What could be more defensive that a rapid fire, high capacity, short RIFLE if you get caught having to defend your position from an unknown number of assailants or ???

Good luck. If you carry your 870 with a loaded tube and the trigger depressed all you have to do is pump, point, and shoot. When you're half asleep I can imagine that would be more difficult with an AR15 with sight picture allignment with standard iron sights (since you're not going to turn your lights on) or turning on your red dot. I've never heard of a home invasion with 10 assailents or a shoot out lating for 30+ minutes in suburbia but if I did I too would ant a AR15.

BTW I think its cute that you've kept track of those 280,000 rounds