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Do you have any links to the shallow penetration tests on the 165gr corbon load?Originally Posted by wesprt
I found this.
.45 ACP Corbon 165 gr +P Powerball from 1911
BG: vel=1230 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.70”, RW=158.8gr
4LD: vel=1267 f/s, pen=11.8”, RD=0.66”, RW=159.7gr
auto windshield: vel=1251 f/s, pen=5.5”, RD=0.73”, RW=143.5gr
About 1 foot of penetration. I know this is most likely considered in todays day and age to be "shallow."
Last edited by 1911pro; 01-05-11 at 19:45.
"No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existance and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil." - John Galt
Member
Thanks. Good info.
"No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existance and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil." - John Galt
Member
http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html
For your earlier +P+ question the answer is yes, but with recoil & firing pin spring upgrades. +P+ .45 ACP is known as ".45 Super", same outside dimensions but with a thicker case to handle the pressure. You can get another 150-200 FPS +- depending on bullet weight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super
There's also the .460 Rowland which is a slightly lengthened .45 ACP. In 1911's it usually takes a barrel, recoil & firing pin spring switch. There are .45 Rowland loads that approach the .44 Magnum.
Last edited by wesprt; 01-05-11 at 20:06.
Member
Thanks. It would have been nice if they had shown the other tests. Weird how they only show the one inch slice of gelatin freeze frame.
"No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existance and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil." - John Galt
Member
[QUOTE=wesprt;868003]http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html
For your earlier +P+ question the answer is yes, but with recoil & firing pin spring upgrades. +P+ .45 ACP is known as ".45 Super", same outside dimensions but with a thicker case to handle the pressure. You can get another 150-200 FPS +- depending on bullet weight."
What type of firing pin would you need? When it comes to the recoil spring I assume you would just need a stiffer one? With that stiffer firing spring would it make less powerful ammo not work like range ammo because it would not have the power to come back far enough to properly cycle?
Last edited by payj; 01-05-11 at 20:37.
Member
[QUOTE=payj;868045]He said firing pin spring, not firing pin. Usually when you buy recoil springs from Wolff, they also come with an extra power firing pin spring. Both the recoil spring and XP firing pin spring should be changed out at the same time. Simply buy a heavier weight recoil spring (1911 standard is 16lbs) if you're concerned about battering the frame. To answer your question about a stronger spring causing problems with weaker ammo, it is possible with brands like Remington UMC which are notoriously known to be loaded weak. As long as you don't go much heavier than the standard, you shouldn't have problems with most standard pressure ammo.
Member
Look at credible gel tests of similar weight bullets fired at different velocities. Penetration is about the same, and in a handful the lighter, faster bullet penetrates less, but expands more. What good is expansion if it prevents adequate penetration to the vital tissue? Most +P ammo I've run across hasn't even broken the SAAMI standard pressure threshold to even be +P.
Be it a human or an animal, 100fps isn't going to make a pinch of difference when the hammer drops. Pair that with a marginal defensive bullet and it's simply not on the radar for defensive loads. I would much rather you carry something like a 185gr Gold Dot, XTP, or Golden Sabre than the Pow'RBall.
I'm an FFL/gunsmith, not the holster company. We specialize in subsonic ammunition and wholesale rifles.
Senior Member
There are substantially better loads available than Power-Ball...
There is a logical and rational purpose for agencies to consider using +P .45 ACP duty ammo. Back in 2003, we discovered that some lots of standard pressure RA45T failed to expand properly, especially against heavier clothing. According to the engineers at Winchester, the RA45T and RA45TP used the same bullet. The RA45TP was originally only slightly +P--running only 2000 psi higher pressure than RA45T, which translates to approximately 50 f/s faster muzzle velocity and marginally greater perceived recoil; this slight velocity increase helped bullets with shallow jacket notching expand more reliably. According to one of the engineers who designed the Talon bullet, as the tooling which stamps the jacket notches dulls with use, the notches become too shallow and robust expansion is inhibited. With proper jacket notching, we saw RA45T loads with velocities in the low 800-825 f/s range expand reliably through 4 layer denim testing; with incorrect, too shallow notches, we have seen RA45T loads with velocities in the high 850-875 f/s range fail to expand. When driven above 900-925 f/s, RA45T bullets almost always expand reliably through 4 layer denim testing. For example, the bullets from lot #31TF31, which failed to expand in denim when fired from a pistol, expanded normally during 4 layer denim testing when fired out of a 8.5" barrel M3A1 "Grease Gun". Interestingly, 230 gr JHP +P RA45TP has never had a failure to expand during our 4 layer denim testing, but has occasionally exhibited signs of excess velocity, as shown by the expanded jacket beginning to fold back against the core. We have observed this same behavior when the standard pressure RA45T is fired out of .45 ACP SMG’s with 8.5” barrels, as bullet velocity is increased approximately 100 f/s over that observed from 4” to 5” pistol barrels. The RA45TP also has demonstrated a greater propensity for core-jacket separation when fired through automobile front windshield intermediate barriers compared to RA45T. Better functioning and reliability has been noted with the +P load, especially with dirty pistols.
Unfortunately, +P .45 ACP can cause accelerated wear and premature parts failures on some pistols, particularly 1911's--especially if the ammunition is loaded up at the hotter end of the pressure range (925-975 fps for a 230 gr bullet fired from a 5” barrel). Keep the +P pressures at the lower end of the spectrum (875-925 fps for a 230 gr bullet fired from a 5” barrel) and increased wear is not a significant issue. It is vexing that many recent RA45TP and P45HST1 lots have been creeping up above 950 fps, causing numerous problems with 1911's.
I would strongly suggest that agencies purchasing large quantities of ammo should specify in the contract the velocity range (along with terminal performance standards) they will accept--if the average velocity (as well as performance parameters) is outside that allowed by the contract, then they should reject the entire lot of ammo and make the vendor replace it with ammo that meets the required specification.
Member
Thank you Dr. Roberts for the great information. I will be replacing the corbon load. I do see that there are better choices out there. What is your favorite self defense round for the 5inch .45acp 1911?
Last edited by 1911pro; 01-06-11 at 14:13.
"No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existance and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil." - John Galt
Member
Thanks. It is sinking in that they suck. What do you think of the Golden Sabre?
"No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existance and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil." - John Galt
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