Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: AAR: Vickers Tactical Adv. Handgun Instructor- January 5-7, 2011-Ft. Lauderdale, FL

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    482
    Feedback Score
    10 (100%)

    AAR: Vickers Tactical Adv. Handgun Instructor- January 5-7, 2011-Ft. Lauderdale, FL



    Training Days 1 & 2 complete- AAR to follow...



    Apologies for the delay- got back from the class and have been busy ever since. Flight delay gives me some time to update the AAR, albeit without the benefit of the notes I took during the class

    This was my second time training with Larry Vickers, prior to the class I had been doing a consistent dry fire routine knowing that I would be held to a more demanding accuracy standard. I worked strong hand and other strong hand only dry fire as well. I was glad I did but it still wasn't enough as I would learn over the course of 3 days.

    Course was hosted at the Broward Sheriff's Office Range which is part of the Markham Park Complex. Facilities are nice, with running water and fixed restrooms rather than the Porta-Johns you normally find at ranges. The BSO folks were great hosts and hard shooters. Students were a mix of BSO, other local LE, Feds and a few random folks from as far away as Illinois and North Carolina. As the student from NC commented, its nice to be in a class of armed professionals...

    Most of the students in the class had previous training from other well known industry folks (Pat Rogers, Magpul Dynamics, Insights Training) but only a few had taken a course with LAV before.

    LAV started with his "Real World Range Rules." I've seen some misinterpretations of this on the internet from others who use it as an excuse to pick and choose which safety rules they choose to abide by. My take-away from it is that in the "Real World" you won't have 20 foot berms, a 1 way square range or somebody looking over your shoulder to tell you when you're doing something wrong so you'd better instill safe gun handling practices in your training so that you minimize those violations once the stress of the "Real World" kicks in.

    Rule 1: Treat all guns as though they are loaded. From LAV's experience this is the most commonly violated safety rule as people will do all sorts of things with an "unloaded" gun that they would never do with a "loaded" gun.

    Rule 2: Finger straight until sights on target or ready to shoot. Used to be more commonly violated but significant improvements due to better training.

    Rule 3: Never point your gun at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy. The one most likely to be violated once off the square range, in LAV's experience- it will be violated simply because of the nature of what we do. Once you're moving around other people, in and out of vehicles it is inevitable that you will unintentionally sweep somebody with your muzzle. In a room clearing type scenario where you will be running a weapon mounted light on a carbine- you will end up sweeping people before you can determine if they need to be shot (or not). We need to be aware of when it happens and do our best to minimize it.

    Rule 4: Be aware of what's in front of and behind the target. The one we train the least in due to nature of square range training. It is also one of the things most likely to happen in real world as your target(s) may be moving and other no-shoots can be moving in and out of your field of fire, both in front of and behind the target.

    Note: Firing drills may be out of sequence as I am relying strictly on memory right now.

    LAV discussed his view of common pistol shooting doctrine and the importance (or lack of importance) given to trigger control. Take a list of things that is commonly attributed to shooting a pistol well, e.g. sight picture, sight alignment, grip, stance, breathing, etc. and trigger control is usually somewhere near the bottom. LAV believes that trigger control is probably the #1 thing that determines how well you can shoot a pistol. Dry fire can help with this but since a shooter will "know" that the gun is unloaded they can do perfect dry fire but still have problems once they transition to live fire.

    ***Photo Removed Temporarily***

    We started with some ball and dummy drills to work on this.

    The classic ball and dummy has students separated in to two relays with one student on the gun and the other student either loading a live round in to the shooter's gun or leaving the chamber empty. Shooter should present and fire with perfect trigger control regardless of condition of weapon. Any trigger jerks (el Snatcho) requires the student to do 5 remedial dry fire reps as a corrective action.

    One of the pitfalls of this drill is that shooters will take as long as they can ("a fiscal year"- LAV) to complete the drill. Once they move on to presentations from the holster or are placed under the stress of a timer they will rush the shot and most likely jerk the trigger. To ameliorate this LAV has 2 other variations of the ball and dummy drill using a timer to force the student to speed up everything except the trigger press. 1 involves giving the student a set amount of time to break the shot and the second has a par-time for the student to come out of the holster and make the shot.

    There was an eclectic mix of guns in the class; Glocks, M&P's, HK's, Sigs and a lone Beretta. Throughout the class, LAV answered questions and offered opinions on the different types of pistols.

    Glock: Gen 3 9mm with the right ammo is probably best choice for those that "treat their guns like their lawnmower"

    HK: Best built, HK45 is just a combination of features that HK already had spread out across several pistol platforms consolidated in to one. Best service grade .45 ACP ever made.

    S&W: M&P is a great design with potential to be heir to the 1911A1- failed due to Smith & Wesson's obsession with cutting costs. In LAV's words "it's got fleas..." due to problems with QA. Out of a normal class of 20 students he may see 2 or 3 on the line.
    Last edited by Treehopr; 01-19-11 at 12:08. Reason: Belated update

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    343
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Any additional info, on how this course went? I would love to get to this class one day down the road.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    0
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    While we wait for a few guys to finish up their AAR's I can post a few photos;



    Vickers Tactical
    www.vickerstactical.com



    Grey Group Training:
    www.greygrouptraining.com









    ***Photos Removed Temporarily***
    Paul A. Hotaling
    Alias Training & Security Services, LLC
    Paul@aliastraining.com
    757-215-1959 (Mon-Fri 8AM-5PM)
    757-985-9586 (After Hours)
    www.aliastraining.com


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,147
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Too bad this one was a closed class. Right in my backyard, at the range where I shoot all the time.

    The good news is that since the convict sheriff (Jenne) was ousted we've seen a much more relaxed atmosphere at the range in some regards, but a much tighter control in others as the deputies actually get out there and train at the range now. Maybe one day we'll get to have some open-enrollment training at that facility, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Looking forward to hearing more about this class.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,023
    Feedback Score
    13 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake View Post
    Any additional info, on how this course went? I would love to get to this class one day down the road.
    I would also like to attend this class. Maybe we can do a road trip?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    482
    Feedback Score
    10 (100%)
    ***Photo Removed Temporarily***

    Notes from night shoot for TD1:

    Lights: Surefire is still king of the hill. The light is not a weapon, the light should not be used as a weapon. The light is there to illuminate the threat and allow for discrimination.

    During one demonstration LAV had a Surefire hand held light inserted in to the foam target backer and had a shooter up on the line with his eyes closed. On command shooter would attempt to fire at the bullseye even though light was pointed directly in to his eyes. Shooter was able to do this without much trouble.
    ***Photo Removed Temporarily***

    Jack D. of the FLPD asked if this would be viable in an LE setting since the light could preclude any sort of identification of a weapon, potentially leaving the LEO in a position where they shot someone for pointing a light at them. LAV answered that other target indicators such as muzzle flash/noise may be required for “clean shoot” and acknowledged Jack D.’s point.
    ***Photo Removed Temporarily***

    Weapon mounted lights- arguments can be made for and against. On a carbine- mandatory, on a pistol- optional. Disadvantage is that no matter what kind of switch is used, it forces shooter to change firing grip. Regardless of whether you run weapon mounted light you need to have a handheld light.

    Hand held light techniques:

    Harries- strong support, biased toward support side, difficult to use if working strong side corner without exposing large parts of body.

    Neck index: ?- don't remember the nuances but as I recall LAV said he's not a fan.

    Cigar(?): Pinch body of light with thumb (top) and index finger (bottom) while bringing light alongside frame and placing tailcap against the meat of the firing side thumb.

    Low light engagement sequence:

    Locate: light on, locate, light off, move
    Identify: light on, discriminate, light off, move
    Engage: shoot, move

    If dept. policy/ROE state that light must be on then light can be turned on during the “shoot” portion of Engage.
    ***Photos Removed Temporarily***

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    482
    Feedback Score
    10 (100%)
    TD2 started with a condensed review of the firing and dry-firing drills done on TD1.

    Other notes from class- again out of sequence since I'm drawing from memory. Any errors are mine alone.

    Gross Motor vs. Fine Motor Skills

    Not a believer in the GMS argument since it is often used selectively. As an example, during a combat reload shooter racking the slide after inserting a fresh magazine to chamber a round. If argument is that releasing slide stop/lever is a Fine Motor Skill- then why isn’t depressing the magazine release considered a Fine Motor Skill?

    ***Photo Removed Temporarily***

    Reloads:
    Combat reload: as gun goes to slide lock bring gun in to workspace rotating gun in firing hand to allow thumb to depress mag release (for HK’s with paddle release use trigger finger), keep gun straight up so magwell is pointed directly down, while mag drops free support hand goes to draw fresh mag, point magwell toward source of ammunition (minimizing amount of distance mag has to go), bring mag up and insert mag directly in line with magwell and depress slide stop/release with support hand thumb.

    For lefties- support hand comes in under the frame to depress slide release (for Glocks shooter will need extended slide release) or sling shot the slide

    Tactical reload: LAV believes that you should retain the magazine whenever possible since by nature you will never bring enough pistol ammo to a gunfight. Prefers to do a simultaneous exchange rather than stowing the partial before drawing fresh mag to minimize down time of the gun.

    Speed reload: LAV, not a believer- thinks that's one of the things that has creeped over from the competition side to the tactical world. See above re: bringing enough pistol ammo, don't have the luxury of leaving ammo on the ground when people need to be shot. Unrealistic to think that anybody will be able to police up mags during the fight or even after if situation is fluid and people are moving.

    Auto reload: a term used to denote the ability of certain guns that can have the slide go forward if inserting the magazine at a slight angle toward the muzzle. If done “correctly” shooter simply inserts magazine and using the support hand palm- drives it toward the muzzle allowing the slide to come forward. LAV not a fan since it is possible that you can have a slide come forward before the magazine is fully inserted and therefore creating a situation where you have an empty chamber and fresh magazine.
    ***Photos Removed Temporarily***

    Malfunctions:

    Tap, Rack, Bang: Tap base of magazine, rack slide by pinching slide with meat of thumb and fingers (palm down), being sure not to block ejection port

    RIP: If tap-rack-bang does not work- continue onward: lock the slide back, rip the mag out, shake the gun, let the slide go forward, insert new mag (or re-insert old mag), rack the slide

    ***Photos Removed Temporarily***

    LAV discussed how one of the biggest impediments to shooting well is our minds psyching ourselves out. Since there is nothing “natural” about having a small explosion happen several inches from your hands directly in your field of view shooting is something that needs to be properly trained. Poor training may only make the problem worse. LAV used the analogy of holding a firecracker in your hands directly in front of your face with a pair of pliers. Drill like the ball and dummy will help alleviate some of the anticipation and flinching that the mind associates with shooting.

    That same mental self sabotage also comes in to play with sight picture and sight alignment. The sights may have a slight wobble but because of the intense concentration it appears to be greater than it actually is. So the mind correlates stillness with accuracy, this presents itself when students have a wobble and attempt to make the gun fire RIGHT NOW which usually brings out El Snatcho. LAV had us do present and sight in at 10 yards and move the sight around the bullseye, first in a small circle and then in a small figure 8. We then walked up close to the target and did the same thing. The small amount of wobble at 10 yards actually has very minimal effect on target.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    93
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    I was fortunate enough to be able to attend this course. I used to try and knock out at least two top tier classes a year, but alas, no longer have the financial abilities to do so. It helped that I was able to bring my wife down and stay with a friend we visit a couple of times a year. This was my second training event with Larry, the first being a one day program a year or two ago in Linden NC and put on by GG.

    First, thanks to the Broward County SO for hosting the event. I was pretty impressed with the public facility next to their range (especially the skeet range) as even though NC if pretty gun friendly, a publicly owned and operated firearms range is unheard of. Places to shoot here are hard to come by.

    I took a great deal of information away from the class, most of which treehopper covered (good meeting you by the way.) I took copius notes on the drills fired so I could bring them back to my training program (I supervise the full time firearms training unit at my agency) as well as hone my ever declining skills- I need much more practice. I like Larry's no nonsense approach to using the handgun and mastering the basics of marksmanship. I also subscribe to his philosophy of "being so safe we become dangerous" I am often heard telling officers and trainees that if we cannot practice a skill set at the range, then how can we be expected to perform it on the street. I am (already have) stolen this quote "The time to figure it out is not at night, in the rain and under fire."

    I have become a convert to the 25 yard pistol bull as a training target. Post if up COM high chest on a silouhette and you have a realistic zone with performance metrics in the scoring rings. There are (IMO) way to many target styles out there for training courses, most of which are to busy with extraneous graphics or way to forgiving when it come to measuring shooting ability. In summary, this course was well worth the time and investment, not to mention it is in one of may favorite places, Florida. I am becoming a real cold wuss the older I get, and wearing a "T" shirt on the range in January is great. I joked with the local guys to keep encouraging folks to talk about how bad FL and encourage people to leave so there will be more room for me when I retire. The only downer for me was the near 13 hour drive one way, especially the trip back which ended with six inches of snow on the ground.
    Last edited by CWM11B; 01-30-11 at 12:35.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    343
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Cunningham View Post
    I would also like to attend this class. Maybe we can do a road trip?
    Sounds like a plan.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •