Training with multiple targets

[eo500]

I was out the other day training with multiple targets 3-5 at various distances down-range. As I was running through the "course" a couple of times, I realized that I had no idea what the recommended number of shots per target are. I guess in the unlikely event that I am ever in this situation, I would shoot each target closest to farthest until it drops and move to the next. With cardboard targets at up to 200yds with just an Aimpoint it's impossible for me to see my hits.

My question is what is the best way to train on multiple targets?

1. One hit on each target, in order to improve my target transitioning.
2. Mozambique, two center mass, and one head, then move to next target..
or
3. Is there some other recommended method.

I know the answer is probably a combination of all-of-the above, and I don't want to get too caught up in always training the same way. I'm not looking to ingrain set habits in order to "game" the system like I've seen people do with the FAST drill etc.

What I really want to know is what is the best way to train for multiple targets? I've thought about having a shooting partner shout "down" to let me know to move on to the next target, but I don't always have someone with me. I'd like to get steel, but it's not in the budget for me right now. I'd appreciate any expertise you have to share.

[kartoffel]

Set up different courses of fire and train with a number of shots per target. If you don't mix it up, you might end up in a rut.

If it ever came to it and you were shooting a real targets, you'd shoot until they stop. Some places make plastic targets that are meant to fall down after so many hits... might be worth checking out.

[jenrick]

There are three schools of thought I've seen in the various training I've been to.

1) Shoot one target till it goes down, shoot the next till it goes down, continue as needed.

2) Engage each target with 1 round, then engage the last target till it goes down. Work back through your targets putting them down.

3) Engage each target with 1 round, then go back through with 1 additional round. Repeat until everyone stays down.

Method one provides the advantage that each target is done before you move onto the next. Disadvantages are that everyone else is still shooting at you unimpaired.

Method two causes each target to get it's OODA loop reset as it reacts to being shot. Then you hopefully put them down before they've had a chance to recover. Disadvantage is that you're doing an awful lot of target transitions.

Method three is all about reseting the OODA loop, and never letting them get to Act. The obvious disadvantage is that you're having to transition after every round. I've never seen this taught with a rifle, just a pistol at close range.


Whatever method you go with, stick with it. I personally prefer method 1. I can't control how fast or slow any bad guy is going to go through their OODA loop, I can't control how well or poorly they'll shoot. I can control how fast I take the targets entirely out of the equation. One round to the target may not provide enough disruption to his OODA loop to buy me the time to come back and reengage him. 5-6 rounds will most likely end his threat potential, and not require me to have to revisit him. I can accomplish both in about the same time frame.

If you've got the coin several companies make hit reactive targets that you can set a range of hits to drop (for instance 5 hits, +/- 2).

-Jenrick

[noctis]

Everyone gets served before anyone gets seconds.

L. Awerbuck told me in my first class with him not fall into the Mozambique trap. Just create some variety for each target on the spot.



Target 1 - 2 Chest + 2 Head
Target 2 - 1 Pelvic + 2 Chest + 2 Head
Target 3 - 3 Chest + 1 Head
Target 4 - 1 Chest + 3 Head

We didn't stop the drill until we were confident in our shot placement adding 1 or 2 more after the drill, making sure you're not "gaming it".

[rob_s]

Bill Jeans encourages a "non-standard response" in his training. That term has become an actual defined term by some, which then strikes me as an oxymoron (if it's a set round count, every time, isn't it then by definition "standard"?). In Bill's class you engage with a number of rounds between X and Y.

In our drills nights I encourage our shooters to "engage the target with some number of rounds until it is no longer a threat". Obviously these are cardboard targets so some amount of imagination is required. I also encourage them to utilize that imagination and begin engaging the target first and then decide, while shooting, that the target is neutralized, in contrast with those that say "shoot x number of rounds" or those that decide before the drill "I'm going to shoot this guy 5 times and that guy 7 times".

Which doesn't mean that there isn't a time for a prescribed number of rounds for a drill or exercise.

In terms of sequence, I'd suggest a little FOF or Airsoft training to see how that works out for you. I'm not a particularly big fan of "boardinghouse rules" as I don't think it's very realistic. It operates under the assumption that you'll be confronted by 3 threats all at about the same distance, and that threats 2 and 3 are just going to stand around while you draw your pistol and shoot the first guy with one well-placed round.

I'm reminded of the home invasion last year where two guys pushed their way in, homeowner engages the one in front while the one behind pushes his buddy further into the room and then slams the door behind him before hauling ass out of there! Should the homeowner "engage T1 with one round, then engage T2 with one round before engaging any target a second time"? Personally I'd shoot the shit out of the first mother****er rather than putting one round into him and then go hunting for the guy that isn't there anymore, ignoring a potentially wounded, but not quite out of the fight, T1.

[RWK]

My question is what is the best way to train on multiple targets?

The big training issue with multiple targets is not how many rounds per target but, the transition between targets: being able to transition quickly, smoothly and accurately between targets.

Method two causes each target to get it's OODA loop reset as it reacts to being shot. Then you hopefully put them down before they've had a chance to recover...

Method three all about reseting the OODA loop, and never letting them get to Act.

Someone's teaching people this? Seriously?

Bill Jeans encourages a "non-standard response" in his training. That term has become an actual defined term by some, which then strikes me as an oxymoron (if it's a set round count, every time, isn't it then by definition "standard"?).

No, you're not alone in thinking it's oxy-moronic.

[VMI-MO]

I'm not a particularly big fan of "boardinghouse rules" as I don't think it's very realistic. It operates under the assumption that you'll be confronted by 3 threats all at about the same distance, and that threats 2 and 3 are just going to stand around while you draw your pistol and shoot the first guy with one well-placed round.

.

Drills like that are not designed to make you a gunfighter. They are designed to teach you how to drive the weapon and lead with your eyes. It is a skill. Which can then be applied to a real life situation.

A shooter must be able to identify what a drill can do for him, what skills it is working on, and then be able to apply it in a real world.

For instance I know that in FOF I can "drive the gun" faster than all my peers because I have spent time (alot of it) figuring out how to actually make my weapon move to where I want it.


PJ

[rob_s]

As a drill, maybe. But it is rarely sold as a drill to work on shooting mechanics but instead as a TTP for dealing with multiple threats. This is especially true in IDPA where it is codified into the rules and explained exactly that way.

[LDM]

I'd be curious and appreciative to hear comments regarding the part distance plays in sequence and number of rounds-on-target.
For example, if one target is 2 yards and the other 15 yards.
Also, in regard to type of weapon; e.g knife, handgun, long gun

[Redhat]

I'd be curious and appreciative to hear comments regarding the part distance plays in sequence and number of rounds-on-target.
For example, if one target is 2 yards and the other 15 yards.
Also, in regard to type of weapon; e.g knife, handgun, long gun

Now you're introducing thinking/problem solving into the process. IMHO it should be added after students learn to transition between targets.

One instructor I had simply stated engage the threat that scares you the most.