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Thread: First timer builder seeking wisdom/advice

  1. #1
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    First timer builder seeking wisdom/advice

    First, I would like to thank everyone who participates on these boards. There truly is a tremendous amount of knowledge kickin' around here. Unfortunately, it is often the case that the more you learn, the more you realize how much there is that you don't know :/

    I'm planning to purchase an AR. I was just about set to buy a RRA operator2 when I stumbled upon m4carbine.net. Now I have pushed back the purchase date a few months and have been glued to these forums for the past week and many, many hours reading and researching. It opened up a whole new world for me... one I haven't found since I realized all of the things I could do with my 1911. I have nothing against RRA, regardless of the chart (I know it is for informative purposes and not a black list). The reason I was looking at RRA was because my brother has one. He is active duty in the army and I value his opinion. He loves his recreation RRA... a little too much probably His RRA is a really nice shooter, easily sufficient quality for recreation, although he does use it for IPSC shoots. Thanks to all of you, I'm pretty sure I want more.

    From the looks of it building your own can be a lot less expensive. I was a little shocked by this. I like not paying for parts I plan on replacing I feel like I must be missing something... Can it really be as easy as it looks??? I am looking heavily at a BCM complete upper, figure I can't go wrong with that from everything I read. I want to keep it simple at first and let my rifle slowly evolve as I find out what I really like/want so I was going to get a complete BCM lower. I see that the Noveske factory second lowers are probably a wicked deal over at Rainier, also it's pretty easy on the eyes. For a first timer it seems like putting together a lower from scratch is a good starting point skill wise. What do all of you builders suggest from your first time experience? Should I dive into a bare lower?

    I have a question about barrels as well. I want to go 14.5". Not sure if I want to fuss with the NFA bull though. I'm also afraid that getting a permanent flash hider isn't a great way around the tax stamp. First because I know little about BCMs A2X that they attach, second, I'm not sure if I will be able to fit different barrel nuts and gas blocks over it. I might leave the 14.4" for a later time and start with a 16"... but I would also rather get what I want the first time. Thoughts?

    Anyways, thanks in advance for any suggestions, and please bare with me here... I'm sure these are routine questions that get asked and asked.

  2. #2
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    I bought my first and built my next two. I will always build from now on. It seems you know what you want. Go simple. You will most likely stay that way. I have one of the Noveske seconds. I can't tell why it is a "blem". BCM has some of the best products out there. You won't go wrong with them. I started with a stripped lower for both of my builds. Not hard at all. My first upper build was a stripped receiver. I will always buy a complete upper from now on. By complete, I am talking about the forward assist and the dust cover. I had no trouble with the barrels. Just make sure you get the right tools. (receiver blocks and wrenches) I even thought the pinned Noveske gas blocks were easy. Depending on you skill level and knowledge of the AR platform, I say go for it. Take you time and ask questions if you get stuck. Also, the NFA rout is not a hassle. It is just a waiting game. My 10.5" is my favorite.

    Jeremy
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  3. #3
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    I may not be a prolific poster around here, generally more of a lurker, but here's my two cents.

    For a first rifle, I think you're better off starting with a complete model and working from there. While it's easy to figure out what you "want" from reading, often what looks good on paper translates differently than expected into practice. What would really be a shame is to spend some decent coin to escape "getting stuff you'll replace" only to discover that you replace it later anyway because it didn't line up with your preferences as well as you thought it would.

    I'm actually helping out a buddy of mine who is in the same situation right now, guiding him through his first carbine. At the moment, I've recommended him to a S&W M&P15 as a base model. On the chart, it's further to the left (if you want to use that as a bench mark). An M&P can be had in the ~$1000 range, same as an RRA, but S&W put their money where it mattered, filling in chart features rather than furniture or accessories. What you get is essentially a bare bones but well made rifle, so there's lots of room for customizing the firearm to your preference via grips, trigger, stock, sights, etc without feeling like you wasted a lot of money on "parts you won't use" (because S&W certainly didn't!). The other nice thing about S&W as a starting platform is that the parts that don't comply with the chart are easy enough fixes in their own right, which could bring your rifle up to pretty high levels and give you some tinkering experience before you try to build one from scratch... barrel, bolt carrier, buffer.

    The advantage, at least in my mind, is that you start off with a functional gun without any real "flair" in its operation so you can see precisely where you might want to tweak its operation. At the same time, whatever you swap out essentially just becomes a spare part, and spare parts are an avid carbine user's friends, whether they're the best or mediocre or even just a "well, I've got this on hand, so I'll slap it on til I can get a better one."

    If you're interested, the model I recommended to my buddy is the M&P15OR, it comes with a flat top receiver and a railed low profile gas block with no factory optics, that way you can browse around and find some with a sight picture you like and install them yourself. Personally I'm a fan of Troy's flip up BUIS because I like to run optics on my carbine without anything obscuring part of my field of view. $850 for the rifle on GunBroker, plus ~$250 for the sights.

    Anyway, just my two cents (or more like twenty by this point, heh). Best of luck to you!
    Last edited by MilesVeritatis; 01-11-11 at 15:22.
    Deo vindice, aspirat primo Fortuna labori.

  4. #4
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    First off welcome to the board. The key thing before diving right in and buying parts is make sure you do all the research needed to make you feel comfortable with your decision. Too many guys run out and get parts without any research and then post their build here and find out how not so great their choices were. Also let the search function be your friend. If you have some questions try searching them first. There is a good possibility that you will find your answer without having to ask the question.

    BCM is a great choice cant go wrong there. I just finished up a 16" build. As for your lower if you have the time and determination to do one from a bare lower do it. Its not hard and it doesnt take a whole lot of time at all. You can find tons of videos on youtube on how to assemble uppers and lowers.

    If you decide you dont want to go that route LMT makes a nice lower. Spikes Tactical you can choose custom options from them and they do all the work for you. And they are another good choice. But if you choos to go with them id reccomend the enhanced LPK.
    Last edited by Militant83; 01-11-11 at 14:59.

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    Woah! quick replys. Instant gratification rocks.

    Krammes: My brother says the same about the NFA thing... I think you have convinced me to seriously consider that route. I also forgot that I have the option to go even shorter 14.5". Getting a welded flash hider obviously makes me uncomfortable so I'll just forget that. Besides, the wait won't be too bad as I'm planning on buying in a few months... it also allows me to squirrel away more dough for the build... unless tax time is a happy time for me

    buying a complete rifle is definitely a sound option, very tempting too. It just doesn't make sense to invest in a complete rifle when I can get it for less by buying it in two pieces. If I go the BCM upper and lower all I would need is a stock and forearm (since I have those more or less decided. I would still end up with a complete rifle, just with a couple parts already taken care of.

    I'm thinking Complete BCM upper w/MOE forearm. I want to check out some of those options for the lower... time to price and research ... guess that's the only way I will decide

    Thanks, Fellas

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by totenkopf_u64 View Post
    Woah! quick replys. Instant gratification rocks.

    Krammes: My brother says the same about the NFA thing... I think you have convinced me to seriously consider that route. I also forgot that I have the option to go even shorter 14.5". Getting a welded flash hider obviously makes me uncomfortable so I'll just forget that. Besides, the wait won't be too bad as I'm planning on buying in a few months... it also allows me to squirrel away more dough for the build... unless tax time is a happy time for me

    buying a complete rifle is definitely a sound option, very tempting too. It just doesn't make sense to invest in a complete rifle when I can get it for less by buying it in two pieces. If I go the BCM upper and lower all I would need is a stock and forearm (since I have those more or less decided. I would still end up with a complete rifle, just with a couple parts already taken care of.

    I'm thinking Complete BCM upper w/MOE forearm. I want to check out some of those options for the lower... time to price and research ... guess that's the only way I will decide

    Thanks, Fellas
    I definitely don't disagree with BCM, planning to use their upper and lower for my first build, but not a complete upper. I figured it was just about time to put on my big boy pants and do one from scratch. I've got my plan listed on the board if you're interested in taking a gander.

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71217

    Personally, though (not to cause a ruckus) I'm not a huge fan of SBR's for a general purpose carbine. I like the increased velocity and accuracy that comes with a longer barrel (16" being my favorite, 20" for a DMR setup) and I don't like the idea of the government being "allowed" to "inspect" my rifle any time they want.
    Last edited by MilesVeritatis; 01-11-11 at 16:02.
    Deo vindice, aspirat primo Fortuna labori.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilesVeritatis View Post
    and I don't like the idea of the government being "allowed" to "inspect" my rifle any time they want.

    100% BS... No one, including the govt. can "inspect", or look at anything you own including NFA weapons without a warrent. If they need a warrent to "inspect" your guns, you did something really bad and your guns are your last issue.

    Short barrels are VERY accurate. That is not an issue. I have made multiple hits in a row on a 25" plate at 500yrds with my 10.5" Noveske. It is the loss of velocity that you have to worry about. I just shoot paper and steel, so the 10.5" works for me. If I would have to use it for self defense it would be up close and not past 100 yards. Shooting someone at or beyond 100yrds is not self defense, so it is a non issue. My 18" SPR is for the long stuff. I do plan on building a 12" upper for my SBR lower. 12" seems to be a perfect all around length.


    totenkopf: How much experience do you have with AR's? Have you ever stripped one down?

    Jk
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  8. #8
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    Upon the demand of any ATF agent, the registered owner must produce the original ATF Form with tax stamp affixed to prove the firearm is legally owned.
    That's the part I was referring to... sorry I was unclear. My bad. Wasn't ragging on SBR's, just not my preference is all.
    Last edited by MilesVeritatis; 01-11-11 at 17:30.
    Deo vindice, aspirat primo Fortuna labori.

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    I have practically nil experience with ARs. I stripped my brothers once so he could show me what was going on, but I don't recall much. All told I probably have a little less than a couple hundred rounds worth of experience in ARs. All of my experience is with older rifles. I've shot for years with a garand, k98, g43, m1903, m1 carbine, and a couple others with whose function I am familiar. (my dad collects those kinds of guns). Other than that, I'm a card carrying pistol and shotgun fan.

    I'm seriously leaning towards the sbr route. That BCM 12.5" kino sort of speaks to me. All along I've been leaning toward light and compact... too bad my state doesn't allow Suppressors :/ The AR I have used is heavy as balls by the time that 30rd. mag is gone. That's the one thing I didn't like about 2k worth of optics and accessories... apparently it can make your AR heavier than an M1.

    From what I have read, it would seem to me that the single most significant factor in accuracy is sight radius, as far as iron sights are concerned. As long as the barrel is able to impart the the necessary spin on the bullet, it is as stable as a bullet from a longer barrel. I read that a 12.5" barrel really only loses a around 150fps at the muzzle vs. a 14.5"... which I know is adequate. However, I am no expert.
    Last edited by totenkopf_u64; 01-11-11 at 17:52.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilesVeritatis View Post
    That's the part I was referring to... sorry I was unclear. My bad. Wasn't ragging on SBR's, just not my preference is all.
    Yes, this is true if you are out traveling or shooting with any NFA item. The ATF is the ONLY people you must show your forms to. I was referring to the ATF or any other LEO coming into you home just because you own an SBR.

    totenkopf: With you limited experience I would recommend you buy a complete upper and possibly a stripped lower and build that. The lower is the easy part to assemble. You can SBR a stripped lower on a Form 1 and AFTER approval you can put the short upper on it.

    Jk
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