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Thread: No more Saiga shotguns?

  1. #111
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    So is the question whether a Saiga 12 (IZ-109) that is imported and later converted from a "hunting" stock to a tricked-out, pistol-grip "military" or "competition" gun 922(r) compliant? How is this any different from "assault rifles" that are imported?

    According to my interpretation of 922(r), the components count below cannot be 11 or more. (must be 10 or less - the ATF's wording is "more than 10")

    Russian-made:
    Receiver
    Barrel
    Trunion
    Bolt
    Bolt carrier
    Gas piston
    Handguard

    Easily US-sourced:
    Trigger
    Hammer
    Disconnector
    Buttstock
    Pistol Grip
    Mag body (10 round)
    Mag follower
    Mag floorplate

    More info at:
    http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=65

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn View Post
    Not saying you're wrong, but that has made me think. Benelli and Winchester both employ exhibition shooters that violate US law on an almost daily basis? (Tom Knapp and Tim Bradley with their M2s, Novas, and Supernovas with extended tubes, and Patrick Flanigan with his SXP with extended tube.)

    They are employees of a FFL.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    They are employees of a FFL.
    Are they? A lot of those guys who pull triggers for gun companies are paid on contract rather than being actual company employees. I don't specifically know what status Tom, Tim and Patrick have, but all of the "factory team shooters" I know personally are on contract.

    Also, still wondering if you have a response to my original question?

  4. #114
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    If you want to make some noise about this yourself, you can go to http://www.usrkba.org/commenting-on-...-shotgun-study

    I've also contacted my Congresscritter and pointed out the end run around the legislature being attempted.

    I've copied the suggested comment below:

    The conclusion of the ATF study on the "importability of certain shotguns" is based on a flawed interpretation of 'sporting purposes' using outdated information, incomplete data and stands in violation of the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution as upheld in the 1939 US v. Miller Supreme Court decision, and 2008 District of Columbia v. Heller Supreme Court decision.

    The study identifies 10 features which through a "working group" they recommend any shotgun with any of the identified features be barred from importation. Many of the features identified: integrated rails, light enhancing devices, forward pistol grips, collapsing/folding or telescoping stocks are in 'common use' on various firearms, rifles & shotguns today. 'In common use' was first mentioned in Miller, then reiterated in both Heller & the subsequent McDonald Supreme Court decisions protecting the individual right to keep and bear firearms for self defense. These features being in common use not just for military, law enforcement and personal protection have also found a niche in the sporting community and are practically ubiquitous in some applications. Briefly:



    * Folding, telescoping & collapsible stocks provide an adjustability to the "length of pull". This permits the user to obtain a more ergonomic fit and further allows sportsmen to share the use of the firearm with family members of different stature and age. This feature allows fathers, mothers, sons & daughters to all be able to use a single firearm, as well as allows users to tailor the gun to their specific needs. Better ergonomics and fit offered by these stocks provide for better control of the firearm and enhanced safety.
    * Magazine capacity over 5 rounds is an arbitrary and low number based on the industry today.
    * Flash suppressors allow for faster follow up shots when hunting in fading light of hours near dawn or dusk.
    * Integrated rails, forward pistol grips, & light enhancing devices all permit a more ergonomic and usable sporting shotgun and again are features in common use today. These features permit better ergonomics and control over the shotgun as well as the ability to easily mount accessories on the gun to enhance usability.



    Additionally, many of these features facilitate the shooting sports participation of disabled Americans across the country. Depriving the market of shotguns with features which enables a person with a visual or muscular/skeletal impairment to participate in the shooting sports, is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act, and more importantly is a despicable attempt at preventing a protected minority in our society from enjoying the shooting sports. Included in this group is the Wounded Warrior 3 gun shooting team.

    The study in many places indicated a need to evaluate 'sporting purposes' and declines to address what exactly qualifies as sporting. The study concludes that though USPSA has comparable membership to many organizations it does not 'qualify as sporting' under the current interpretation. Indeed, at 19,000 cited members USPSA dwarfs the membership of the USA Curling society which despite only having 13,000 members is an Olympic sport. This shows that ATF needs to re-investigate the definition of 'sporting purposes' for the use in determining importability of firearms. Because ATF uses not just questionable, but flawed logic in their study, ATF needs to reconstitute the "working group" to examine 'sporting purposes' in the post-Heller, post-McDonald light as well as with the understanding that practical & action competition shooting sports need also be considered.

    In summary, this study should be shelved until 'sporting purposes' is redefined to include a more modern and truthful definition inclusive of action / competition shooting disciplines and the study needs to recognize that any one or even several of the features identified in the study do not disqualify a shotgun or other firearm for importation, that certain features which may be more common in military / militia context do enhance the ability of disabled citizens to exercise their right to keep and bear arms and prohibiting them from importation would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act and that some of these same features are protected by the 2nd Amendment, and reiterated via the Supreme Court rulings in Miller, Heller & McDonald.



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  5. #115
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    Well I finally got around to reading the entire "Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns". Besides setting an example of how to use as many words as possible to say a fairly simple thing, it seems to me that the Saiga should remain on the list of importable shotguns. It doesn't have a separate pistol grip (as imported), it doesn't come with a magazine exceeding 5 rounds (as imported), it doesn't have an integrated rail system (as imported), it doesn't come with a forward pistol grip (as imported), and it's bulk receiver measurements and overall weight do not exceed the standards for importation. While it's certainly ugly (as imported), it's overall dimensions and handling characteristics fall well within those of any traditional semi-auto sporting shotgun. You could even argue that by locating the ammunition supply under the receiver rather than under the barrel, it enhances the pointability and swingability of the gun for skeet, trap and sporting clays, as well as general hunting.

    They have obviously added the Saiga drum magazine manufactured in the U.S. because they want to make hay over the detachable magazine of the Saiga. But I believe they're making a logical fallacy in that argument. As imported, the Saiga meets all the "sporting purpose" standards of the 68' GCA. If it didn't, they never would have allowed it to be imported in the first place. Nothing in the two subsequent studies really changes that. If they try to bring up the "adaptability" of the Saiga into a "military" configuration once it gets here, then the counter-argument to that is that there's nothing in the 68' GCA that bans manufacture of "military" configuration firearms here in the U.S. Since it doesn't get "made" in that configuration until it's already here, then the 68' GCA doesn't apply. In this context, all the 68' GCA addresses is the importation of "non-sporting" firearms, not their manufacture or assembly in the U.S.

    BATFE is free to pursue 922(r) violations if they so choose, as that's the "tool" Congress has given them. We all know that BATFE and the DOJ are loathe to pursue 922(r) cases, because many believe they will get laughed out of court. We all need to focus our efforts on exposing the logical fallacy of banning the Saiga, rather than ineffectively arguing that USPSA is a "sporting purpose". That dog won't hunt, at least not during this study.

  6. #116
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    far as 992r goes, From original Saiga 12, I can't add Magazine that hold more than 5 rounds far as law goes, Correct?

    However after converted with US made parts, It can be added with magazine that hold more then 5 rounds. Am I following this right? Just like it apply to Any other shotguns. I know M4 is for sure.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skang View Post
    far as 992r goes, From original Saiga 12, I can't add Magazine that hold more than 5 rounds far as law goes, Correct?

    However after converted with US made parts, It can be added with magazine that hold more then 5 rounds. Am I following this right? Just like it apply to Any other shotguns. I know M4 is for sure.
    Once you add the necessary parts, according to the law it is no longer an imported but a domestic item.
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skang View Post
    far as 992r goes, From original Saiga 12, I can't add Magazine that hold more than 5 rounds far as law goes, Correct?

    However after converted with US made parts, It can be added with magazine that hold more then 5 rounds. Am I following this right? Just like it apply to Any other shotguns. I know M4 is for sure.
    Correct.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    The next thing they will declare non sporting is your accessory rail and Surefire X300 on your Glock and a threaded barrel on your HK USP, since both of those firearms are imported.
    922r only applies to long guns and rifles. I'm all for following a train of thought, but don't start making up crap to support your argument. Pistols are not bound under 922r.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    922r only applies to long guns and rifles. I'm all for following a train of thought, but don't start making up crap to support your argument. Pistols are not bound under 922r.

    I already know that and it is irrelavent.

    Why do MKE SP89s do not come with a forearm????

    Why do they have some funky block in them????

    The ATF has the power to decide what will be imported and what won't as every firearm has to be ran by them, to get their approval.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

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