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Thread: Honest truth about ss barrels?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    this is just my opinion, but i think most people getting stainless barrels would be better served with a good quality CMV barrel. i think the vast majority of stainless-barreled guns are not used for anything close to true precision work, and their owners aren't even capable of putting the rifle to precision use- either because they simply aren't going to have any training interest, they don't actually even really shoot much, or simply aren't capable of shooting better than about 1.5MOA even on a good day, regardless of barrel.

    and since 1.5MOA is pretty common for good quality CMV barrels these days, and since 1.5MOA is plenty precise enough for basically any combat scenario out to 600m+, and since CMV barrels can take SO much more abuse than stainless barrels, can handle being shot fast and hot without the rapid degradation of hot stainless barrels, i really think the vast majority of people asking this question need to fully assess their wants and needs.

    if you want a combat gun and combat accuracy, stainless is a waste. if the difference between .75 and 1.5 MOA should happen to actually make a real difference to you, then stainless is appropriate. but be honest with yourself (ambiguous).
    I would only want a SS barrel for a precision rifle. According to the guys at ADCO a good SS barrel will last as long as a CMV barrel, but I honestly do not believe this.

  2. #12
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    Stainless barrels are must better for uses where you need to have extreme accuracy. (Sub MOA) Basically if you want a competition rifle for three gun or a precision rifle go stainless. If you want a work gun (ie self defense gun) go chrome lined. I also have an issue with what bkb0000 said about people being able to shoot sub moa. Frankly its easy to shoot good groups with an accurate AR from the bench. Beginners have no issue shooting sub moa based on my experience of letting new shooters shoot some of my guns at the range. (from the bench)
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
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  3. #13
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    Stainless barrels are must better for uses where you need to have extreme accuracy. (Sub MOA) Basically if you want a competition rifle for three gun or a precision rifle go stainless. If you want a work gun (ie self defense gun) go chrome lined. I also have an issue with what bkb0000 said about people being able to shoot sub moa. Frankly its easy to shoot good groups with an accurate AR from the bench. Beginners have no issue shooting sub moa based on my experience of letting new shooters shoot some of my guns at the range. (from the bench) Stainless and Chrome lined barrel both have their place. It would be foolish to build a precision rifle build up with a chrome lined barrel.
    Pat
    Last edited by Alaskapopo; 01-29-11 at 16:31.
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
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    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  4. #14
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    A button rifled stainless barrel cannot hold 1 MOA at 600 yards much past 4000 rounds. A cut rifled barrel like a Krieger will do about 6000 before it won't perform to that standard.

    There is an immense body of knowledge regarding precision stainless barrels for ARs in NRA Highpower Rifle circles.

    I don't know where you guys are getting your info about 10K rounds but I am here to tell you from first hand experience that such a claim is pure bullshit.

    In fact, I am the first to define a certain level of accuracy, which leads me to believe none of you know what you are talking about. You cannot state a barrel's lifespan without first defining a measurable standard to say that it is done........

  5. #15
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    So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.

    I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.

    I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bp7178 View Post
    So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.

    I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.

    I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
    I'd be hesitant to say that any SS barrel can hold 1 MOA at 600 consistently after 10K rounds, no matter who makes it or how well it's made.

    Accuracy at distance will degrade faster than you could notice at 100 yards, and a barrel that won't hold the 10-ring at 600 will probably still shoot fine at <200 yards for much longer.

    I'm sure if you called Pac-Nor and asked, they'd tell you that their barrels will see their best accuracy below 5-6,000 rounds.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bp7178 View Post
    So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.

    I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.

    I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
    That's right. You have zero first hand knowledge of this topic, can't articulate what level of accuracy is being "achieved" at 10K rounds, and just hang on to other people's words.

    I, OTOH, have burned through several barrels in a decade of highpower competition and I *know*, without having to be told, just how long a Krieger SS cut rifled and Wilson and Pac-Nor SS button rifled barrels will hold 1 MOA when chambered in 223 Rem, 260 Rem, and 308 Win.

    The fact that you dismiss Krieger as someone making only long bench shooting barrels only further shows your ignorance. BTW, Noveske barrels, last I heard, were made by Pac-Nor. I've had one on my NM AR and know plenty of people with them too. They def do not last 10K rounds with the level of precision NRA competitors demand.

    Since this is a precision rifle forum, dirt shooting accuracy does not count and that is all you're going to get with ANY barrel, from ANY maker, after the throat is toast with 10K rounds through it.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    BTW, Noveske barrels, last I heard, were made by Pac-Nor. I've had one on my NM AR and know plenty of people with them too. They def do not last 10K rounds with the level of precision NRA competitors demand.
    noveske stainless barrels are made AT pac-nor on noveske's blanks, noveske's tooling, and by noveske's people.
    Last edited by bkb0000; 01-30-11 at 11:59.

  9. #19
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    FWIW the lack of an accuracy standard renders any observation pretty much void. First of all what's the maximum range students engage targets at one of these training events? Unless you are getting outside of 300 meters, you aren't going to see a whole lot of difference accuracy wise. I've personally shot MOA at 300 meters with an M16A2 and M855 ammunition. I kept hitting the 3" spotter during a slow fire course so I know it can be done.

    Kreiger makes barrels shorter than 26". The fact that they aren't well know by the 'tactical' crowd is they don't market to that demographic.

    Quote Originally Posted by bp7178 View Post
    So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.

    I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.

    I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.

    bp7178 didn't post this, but I've included it because it has bearing on the subject. The statement that there was no 'discernable' or 'noticeable accuracy degredation' is meaningless unless the accuracy standard was known to begin with. Pretty much all the carbine courses I'm aware of are heavily weighted to the CQB side. An issue M4 with M855 can produce MOA groups in a CQB setting, and I've seen them hold MOA out to 300 meters.

    Quote Originally Posted by bp7178 View Post
    It’s interesting to note that Rogers witnessed someone use a Noveske Rifleworks 10.5-inch CQB barrel/KFH combo in three classes over a three month period. Over the three-course training package, the student fired 7,730 rounds of 5.56×45mm ammo comprised of NATO M855 (62-grainer), Black Hills 77-grain MK262 MOD 1, Hornady 75-grain TAP rounds, and commercial 55-grain ball, and ended up firing over 10,000 rounds total without any "discernable" loss in accuracy. That’s pretty good. Rogers also mentioned that a second shooter put over 4,000 rounds through his CQB barrel over a two-week period without any noticeable accuracy degredation.
    Now let's take a look at the 10k round claim. Accuracy wise, no one knows more about barrel life than high power and long range shooters. Our scores live and die on the health of our barrels, and if you don't know when your barrel is toast, you're in for a nasty surprise. Most HP shooters know that around 5k is about the time that barrels stop shooting on call at 600 yards. Some shooters sell the barrel, and some use it for the reduced course out to 300 yards because the barrel will still hold sub MOA at that distance. I know an M-1A shooter that had 8,500 rounds through his rifle because he loads down, and didn't burn out the throat. I also know of shooters that didn't get 4k out of a Kreiger because that's just how that barrel shot. Outside of the SDM, the carbine crowd just doesn't care about this kind of accuracy. The fact that a barrel can be absolutely worthless at 600 yards, but be a tack driver at 100 yards makes this even more difficult to quantify. Given that this is the precision semi auto forum, and not the general AR forum, accuracy needs to be defined not guessed at with a general statement.

  10. #20
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    Just curious how does a barrel hold sub moa out to 200 then go to crap past that. Its not making sense to me.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
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    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

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