The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

[Ron3]

After a few years of putting down the pump shotgun I've changed my mind.

I enjoy shooting them (reduced recoil loads) and because they are range friendly I can get far more/better training/practice than I can with a rifle or SBR. I had been thinking that shotguns are best used against a small number of intruders who want to live and aren't wearing armor. Well, isn't that what most HD uses of a gun are? Yup. And just because they are wearing soft armor doesn't mean you won't win. And if you have several guys wearing hard armor invading your home who don't care if they live or die damn. I feel for ya.

I think they are entirely up to the job of HD. And if it gets stolen or the police never give it back to you after an HD encouter your not out much.

[williejc]

For the purpose of being more technically precise, we need to be aware that not all bird shot is the same size. Common shot size varies from a very small #9 to a much larger #2. The #2 and #4 shot have been most commonly used for ducks and turkeys. Most hunters when they say bird shot refer to 71/2, 8, and 9. I am not qualified to debate the topic with experts but hold the opinion that inside a house 2, 4, and 5 will tear somebody a new ass. That said, I use 00 buckshot. There ain't nothing wrong with a 20 gauge slug either.

One fact that I've never seen discussed in l.e. circles is this: you can re-holster a handgun, but with a long gun, you must continue holding it and can't set it aside to assist in some other way. What's the procedure?

[Ron3]

For the purpose of being more technically precise, we need to be aware that not all bird shot is the same size. Common shot size varies from a very small #9 to a much larger #2. The #2 and #4 shot have been most commonly used for ducks and turkeys. Most hunters when they say bird shot refer to 71/2, 8, and 9. I am not qualified to debate the topic with experts but hold the opinion that inside a house 2, 4, and 5 will tear somebody a new ass. That said, I use 00 buckshot. There ain't nothing wrong with a 20 gauge slug either.

One fact that I've never seen discussed in l.e. circles is this: you can re-holster a handgun, but with a long gun, you must continue holding it and can't set it aside to assist in some other way. What's the procedure?

Were you intending to post this in another thread? (Serious question)

[williejc]

Definitely not. Shot size discussion is relevant for this reason. When writers advise against it, they usually lump all shot in one category and call it bird shot. I contend that common sense(mine)dictates that the very small shot would be less effective than very large shot. But very large shot such as 2, 4, and 5 would be viable candidates for home defense use if buckshot were not available. In 1978 I loaded two dead bodies in a funeral home wagon. They had both been shot with #6, which penetrated both bodies as if the shot columns were slugs. Range was 10 feet.

Making shotguns work is a topic that must include ammo types. I don't know any other way to explain the post. Mods can always move or delete if they think the post is not relevant.

[Ron3]

Definitely not. Shot size discussion is relevant for this reason. When writers advise against it, they usually lump all shot in one category and call it bird shot. I contend that common sense(mine)dictates that the very small shot would be less effective than very large shot. But very large shot such as 2, 4, and 5 would be viable candidates for home defense use if buckshot were not available. In 1978 I loaded two dead bodies in a funeral home wagon. They had both been shot with #6, which penetrated both bodies as if the shot columns were slugs. Range was 10 feet.

Making shotguns work is a topic that must include ammo types. I don't know any other way to explain the post. Mods can always move or delete if they think the post is not relevant.

I see. I wouldn't use anything smaller than #1 buck, but I really prefer 00, 000, or a slug. My opinion. Most of my training and practice is with 00 and slugs. They are easy to find in low recoil versions, they don't tear targets up, and I get better feedback on where I'm aiming. Yea they cost more.

I need to take a shotgun class it's been awhile.

[Ron3]

One fact that I've never seen discussed in l.e. circles is this: you can re-holster a handgun, but with a long gun, you must continue holding it and can't set it aside to assist in some other way. What's the procedure?

A long gun, especially one that may be used outside of your home, should have a sling.

[26 Inf]

Definitely not. Shot size discussion is relevant for this reason. When writers advise against it, they usually lump all shot in one category and call it bird shot. I contend that common sense(mine)dictates that the very small shot would be less effective than very large shot. But very large shot such as 2, 4, and 5 would be viable candidates for home defense use if buckshot were not available. In 1978 I loaded two dead bodies in a funeral home wagon. They had both been shot with #6, which penetrated both bodies as if the shot columns were slugs. Range was 10 feet.

Making shotguns work is a topic that must include ammo types. I don't know any other way to explain the post. Mods can always move or delete if they think the post is not relevant.

These last several posts have been thought provoking. The shotgun is a weapon where the ammunition/load should be dependent on intended use.

As you mentioned, at pointblank ranges, virtually any load CAN BE effective, dependent on shot placement.

Mention was made of subjects wearing soft armor - buckshot penetration is worse than most handgun rounds. The pellet's spherical shape has a low ballistic coefficient, and at 1145 fps a 00B pellet has less energy than a .380 round. Potential energy for a Federal Reduced Recoil LE 00B is around 1400 ft/lbs, so you might think it would knock the guy on his ass. You have to remember that that energy is spread over a large area and dissipates over time and distance as the pellets strike the vest, push the vest panel into the body as the pellets deform. Meanwhile the weave of the ballistic material is spreading out that energy. There is going to be some backface deformation injury, but unsure how severe, or whether it would even knock the person down.

What it comes down to is that any vest that will stop a 9mm, will stop birdshot or buckshot rounds.

With a shotgun, heck with any weapon, shot placement is key. It does not matter if the assailant is wearing soft armor, hard armor, or underwear, shots to the neck and face area has the best potential for immediately stopping the fight. Which brings us to the next issue - pattern size.

My concept is that for home defense situations, under 10 yards, the chosen shell's shot column shouldn't resemble a pattern, so much as a single 69 to 80 caliber hole. I recently switched from Federal Tru-Ball slugs to Brenneke Reduced Recoil slugs because I didn't want to worry about the wad, or Tru-Ball, hitting someone other than the bad guy.

[Firefly]

For years, I was inculcated that a Shotgun was THE patrol weapon but I see a lot of shortcomings. I think it has a niche in Home Defense and LE(esp Less Lethal) but would seriously like slugs to be an option. Before some of these newer loads, I would've been all about the 10 ga for slugs. I still keep an old 870 though I almost never shoot it anymore. And I have a 50 cal box of sabot slugs because it's only right.

[Ron3]

For years, I was inculcated that a Shotgun was THE patrol weapon but I see a lot of shortcomings. I think it has a niche in Home Defense and LE(esp Less Lethal) but would seriously like slugs to be an option.

I agree. Except for in and around the home I think shotguns should be loaded with slugs. (As long as you have real sights) Preferably the harder brenneke style with attached wad at a mild 1300-1400 fps. Fiocchi makes good ones.

[26 Inf]

And I have a 50 cal box of sabot slugs because it's only right.

You ever shot those out of a a rifled barrel? Talk about a tack driver at 100 yards. They do okay through a smooth bore but that rifling steps it up a notch, obviously.

Thread drift, now you've got me thinking about rifled shotgun barrels - I've always been a fan of rifled barrels for the 12 gauge less-lethal rounds - they popped the old bean bags open and flying square within four feet of the muzzle; with the sock rounds it is a rotating donut of hurt. Spreads impact over a larger area so you can deploy much closer.