Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ... 13212223
Results 221 to 227 of 227

Thread: The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

  1. #221
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,873
    Feedback Score
    0
    I've never seen a study that covered when a shotgun was used, (with lead, not less-lethal, and not swat action) how many rounds were fired?

    Average? Number of extra rounds loaded and fired? Number of times shotgun was emptied and a reload desired but not possible?

  2. #222
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    9,907
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by vaglocker View Post
    So with almost a decade between the original post and now, is there anything in the original post that would need revisiting? IMO, most of the original post probably still applies, but the training, and equipment available (i.e. ammo (flite control), reliable optics, etc..) have changed a bit. Personally, i've recently begun to re-discover the shotgun and it's capabilities.
    You know, I never read the first post until I read your post. From my perspective there are several things which have changed, and several thing which were inaccurate/not understood by the author. I have all evening, so I'm going to expound. Let me begin by saying a wholeheartedly agree with the majority of what has been written.

    1) Let's start with the myths section: Another myth is the “fact” that you don’t have to aim. while this is true at it's base the author does a poor job of explanation. A general rule-of-thumb we used to teach shotgun patterning to police recruits was that there is one inch of spread per yard with commonly used buckshot loads. If you then ask them to consider how their torso is and contrast that with pattern spread two things become apparent - the need to aim, rather than point shoot, and the effective combat distance with the shotgun, which was generally 15 to 18 yards.

    The advent of the Flite-Control wad and it's variants might seem to negate the need for precision aim because of tighter patterns. In my view it exacerbates the need to aim precisely to get center-mass hit at ethe extend combat range these projectiles offer.

    So, I am totally agreeing with the don’t have to aim myth the author put forward, just pointing out not much useful explanation went along with the statement.

    This photo is of 20 and 30 yard targets with the Flite-Control wads in both full power (LE127) and reduced recoil (LE132):

    Attachment 62551Attachment 62556

    2) The shotgun is so powerful that it will stop a fight with one round. The OP includes this myth in his diatribe against the reduced magazine capacity of the shotgun: . Many believe that all they need to end the fight are the limited number of rounds contained within the short internal magazine of their shotgun.,,,Most shotguns are limited to fewer rounds than a well concealed revolver. Even 10 years ago many police and HD shotguns rolled with extended magazine tubes. In many cases an extended mag tube is the first upgrade a shooter makes to a shotgun they propose to use for HD.

    The author does mention that: like all firearms, stopping the attack depends on the placement of the round on the target. There is no guarantee that a single round, even if of 00 buckshot, will cause enough damage to the enemy to stop their action Shots to the CNS are the only truly reliable stoppers of the human animal. So, ;et's go a little further into that, remember, I'm expounding.

    The standard 00B round consists of 9 projectiles, each .33 caliber (some say .32), for a total grain weight of 465,12 grains. Let's throw out some typical handgun loads to see how many it takes to equal the grain weight of the 9 pellet 00B - 9mm: 115gr x 4.0434 = 465gr; 124gr x 3.75 = 465gr; 147gr x 3.163 = 465gr; .45ACP: 185gr x 2.513 = 465gr; 230gr x 2 = 465gr.

    So each 00B round fired has between two to four times the grain weight of commonly used handgun loads. At the bottom end if I fire four 115grainers into a targert I've delievered the same grain weight with four wound channels compared to 36. There are other ballistic considerations other than grain weight, so let's look at what 00B does is gel under heavy clothing:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment...2&d=1590280657

    So, the 00B penetrates adequately. I haven't done the research, but I'd be willing to bet that the police shotgun has accounted for a greater percentage of one-shot stops than the police handgun in any caliber, simply because of these factors:

    1. Psychological Response To Being Shot – Most people view the shotgun as a devastating weapon, they have seen movies in which shotguns have toppled cars and physically thrown people off their feet or through windows. While these are not the actual effects of the shotgun, they are what the public perception is. Therefore, a person confronted, or shot, by a police shotgun may be more likely to surrender due to psychological rather than physical incapacitation.

    2. Disruption of Motor Nerve Impulse – Due to the multiple projectiles in each shot shell, there is a greater likelihood of striking the CNS and causing disruption of motor nerve impulse.

    3. Disruption of Major Organ Function – For the reasons stated above shotgun pellets also have greater potential to cause disruption of major organ function.

    4. Shock Due to Blood Loss – Wounds resulting from a shotgun have a tendency to bleed more freely because of multiple wound channels than those incurred with a handgun. This results in quicker onset of hypovolemic shock. The chances of hitting a major artery, increasing this effect, is also greater due to the number of pellets.

    3) What people fail to understand is that over an extended period of time, a shotgun is punishing to shoot. Not going to lie to you, many officers, and I'd imagine civilians feel this is true, largely due to improper training. The first thing I learned when I attend my first shotgun instructor course was that mounting a shotgun to shoot at a person - non-flying object - is different in mounting the shotgun to shoot birds or clays. Mounting the weapon properly is the first big help in reducing the punishment.

    Critical to a proper mount is a proper fitting stock. The Remington 870, as an example, has shipped with essentially the same stock dimensions, designed for the average male of the era in which it first came out. What has happened since that time? We became more fleshy as a population, police officers started wearing body armor, more and more women have become involved in shotgun shooting.

    As a result of unknowing instructors, women and smaller police officers have sometimes been forced to train with shotguns with much too long a length of pull. This causes them to cantilever back as they mount the shotgun into the shoulder, placing them off balance. In this position their shoulders don’t remain square into the threat and the less-protected side panel area of the vest is exposed. Additionally, recoil causes the stock to shift to the outside of the shoulder and impact the cheek area, increasing discomfort.

    Properly fitting a shotgun and recognizing one 'gauge' doesn't fit all is important in mitigating the punishing effect of the shotgun. Of course, the popularity of the semi auto shotgun makes this less an issue.

    4) There have also been “reduced” loads or “tactical loads” which in reality castrates the questionable power advantage the shotgun may have within the scope of its usefulness. Holleee shit batman, look at the charts I placed above.

    5) Ammunition Selection. On the subject of ammo and its usefulness, 00 buckshot is what your defensive shotgun should be loaded with. I prefer not to deal in absolutes. Actually, (if you can get it) Federal LE132-1B (12 GA 2 ĺ IN BUCKSHOT, Low Recoil, 15 Pellets – 1 Buck) is arguably better because:

    “Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ĺ-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 15 pellets of #1 buck.

    The total combined cross sectional area of the 15 pellets is .964 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 20 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

    In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker’s body.”


    Attachment 62553 Attachment 62554

    As for my family, our HD shotguns are loaded with Brenneke THD Slugs:

    Attachment 62555

    6) All This Being Said, Here Is An Idea Of What Your Defensive Shotgun Should Look Like: On the stock should be a means to carry reloads—these reloads need to be slugs if the shooter determines that they wish to use the shotgun as a multi-purpose weapon—there are various types of stock carriers and the carrier needs to be affixed to the stock in some way to keep it from moving during shooting. Once again, I hate absolutes, but IMO stock mounting ammo is a no-go at may station. My background is as a police instructor, and most shotguns are carried in units where it can't always be guaranteed that one of the person won't be left-handed. If the stocks are set up for right hand carry it isn't possible for the lefty to use it correctly. In addition to this, you should be able to fire the shotgun from the appropriate shoulder when using cover (yes, you can, close the other eye) a stock mounted carrier precludes this.

    Taken in totality, I overwhelmingly agree with what the OP wrote, I just have some problems with his skewing and absolutism.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 05-23-20 at 21:48.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Lowcountry, SC.
    Posts
    6,057
    Feedback Score
    30 (100%)
    LE132-1b is the 1 buck Flite Control, isnít it? If so, I think Federal discontinued it due to lack of sales. I didnít find out that all the pestering to get them to make some worked until it was already too late.
    RLTW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez
    All I do is eat ass and sixty-nine Nintendos, bro. Everyday.
    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.

  4. #224
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    9,907
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    LE132-1b is the 1 buck Flite Control, isn’t it? If so, I think Federal discontinued it due to lack of sales. I didn’t find out that all the pestering to get them to make some worked until it was already too late.
    I haven't really looked, I got gifted a couple of sleeves and haven't used it other than to pattern - bad guys are scarce in my life LOL. Plus, I use slugs for HD.

    It is out of stock every place I've looked, but, they all offered the 'notify me when back in stock option.' I knew it was hard to get but I didn't hear it had been discontinued. A lot of times they put lower demand stuff to the side in order to make higher demand stuff. I will call a source Tuesday to check if it has actually been discontinued.

    I found this on Shotgun World:

    Guys this is my first post here, and am just posting this to let others know that Federal has discontinued (permanently) the Flite Control #1 Buckshot Tactical LE132-1B cartridges. After not finding any in stock I emailed Federal and this is there reply:

    Quote:
    Hi ******, LE132 1B, 12 GA POLICE LOAD, is Discontinued and no longer available. The last time it shipped (all remaining inventory) was to Kiesler Police Supply Inc. 8/15/18. Thank you for your email and support.

    Attachment 62569
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 05-24-20 at 18:35.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  5. #225
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Patron State of Shooting
    Posts
    4,396
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    You know, I never read the first post until I read your post. From my perspective there are several things which have changed, and several thing which were inaccurate/not understood by the author. I have all evening, so I'm going to expound. Let me begin by saying a wholeheartedly agree with the majority of what has been written.

    1) Let's start with the myths section: Another myth is the “fact” that you don’t have to aim. while this is true at it's base the author does a poor job of explanation. A general rule-of-thumb we used to teach shotgun patterning to police recruits was that there is one inch of spread per yard with commonly used buckshot loads. If you then ask them to consider how their torso is and contrast that with pattern spread two things become apparent - the need to aim, rather than point shoot, and the effective combat distance with the shotgun, which was generally 15 to 18 yards.

    The advent of the Flite-Control wad and it's variants might seem to negate the need for precision aim because of tighter patterns. In my view it exacerbates the need to aim precisely to get center-mass hit at ethe extend combat range these projectiles offer.

    So, I am totally agreeing with the don’t have to aim myth the author put forward, just pointing out not much useful explanation went along with the statement.

    This photo is of 20 and 30 yard targets with the Flite-Control wads in both full power (LE127) and reduced recoil (LE132):

    Attachment 62551Attachment 62556

    2) The shotgun is so powerful that it will stop a fight with one round. The OP includes this myth in his diatribe against the reduced magazine capacity of the shotgun: . Many believe that all they need to end the fight are the limited number of rounds contained within the short internal magazine of their shotgun.,,,Most shotguns are limited to fewer rounds than a well concealed revolver. Even 10 years ago many police and HD shotguns rolled with extended magazine tubes. In many cases an extended mag tube is the first upgrade a shooter makes to a shotgun they propose to use for HD.

    The author does mention that: like all firearms, stopping the attack depends on the placement of the round on the target. There is no guarantee that a single round, even if of 00 buckshot, will cause enough damage to the enemy to stop their action Shots to the CNS are the only truly reliable stoppers of the human animal. So, ;et's go a little further into that, remember, I'm expounding.

    The standard 00B round consists of 9 projectiles, each .33 caliber (some say .32), for a total grain weight of 465,12 grains. Let's throw out some typical handgun loads to see how many it takes to equal the grain weight of the 9 pellet 00B - 9mm: 115gr x 4.0434 = 465gr; 124gr x 3.75 = 465gr; 147gr x 3.163 = 465gr; .45ACP: 185gr x 2.513 = 465gr; 230gr x 2 = 465gr.

    So each 00B round fired has between two to four times the grain weight of commonly used handgun loads. At the bottom end if I fire four 115grainers into a targert I've delievered the same grain weight with four wound channels compared to 36. There are other ballistic considerations other than grain weight, so let's look at what 00B does is gel under heavy clothing:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment...2&d=1590280657

    So, the 00B penetrates adequately. I haven't done the research, but I'd be willing to bet that the police shotgun has accounted for a greater percentage of one-shot stops than the police handgun in any caliber, simply because of these factors:

    1. Psychological Response To Being Shot – Most people view the shotgun as a devastating weapon, they have seen movies in which shotguns have toppled cars and physically thrown people off their feet or through windows. While these are not the actual effects of the shotgun, they are what the public perception is. Therefore, a person confronted, or shot, by a police shotgun may be more likely to surrender due to psychological rather than physical incapacitation.

    2. Disruption of Motor Nerve Impulse – Due to the multiple projectiles in each shot shell, there is a greater likelihood of striking the CNS and causing disruption of motor nerve impulse.

    3. Disruption of Major Organ Function – For the reasons stated above shotgun pellets also have greater potential to cause disruption of major organ function.

    4. Shock Due to Blood Loss – Wounds resulting from a shotgun have a tendency to bleed more freely because of multiple wound channels than those incurred with a handgun. This results in quicker onset of hypovolemic shock. The chances of hitting a major artery, increasing this effect, is also greater due to the number of pellets.

    3) What people fail to understand is that over an extended period of time, a shotgun is punishing to shoot. Not going to lie to you, many officers, and I'd imagine civilians feel this is true, largely due to improper training. The first thing I learned when I attend my first shotgun instructor course was that mounting a shotgun to shoot at a person - non-flying object - is different in mounting the shotgun to shoot birds or clays. Mounting the weapon properly is the first big help in reducing the punishment.

    Critical to a proper mount is a proper fitting stock. The Remington 870, as an example, has shipped with essentially the same stock dimensions, designed for the average male of the era in which it first came out. What has happened since that time? We became more fleshy as a population, police officers started wearing body armor, more and more women have become involved in shotgun shooting.

    As a result of unknowing instructors, women and smaller police officers have sometimes been forced to train with shotguns with much too long a length of pull. This causes them to cantilever back as they mount the shotgun into the shoulder, placing them off balance. In this position their shoulders don’t remain square into the threat and the less-protected side panel area of the vest is exposed. Additionally, recoil causes the stock to shift to the outside of the shoulder and impact the cheek area, increasing discomfort.

    Properly fitting a shotgun and recognizing one 'gauge' doesn't fit all is important in mitigating the punishing effect of the shotgun. Of course, the popularity of the semi auto shotgun makes this less an issue.

    4) There have also been “reduced” loads or “tactical loads” which in reality castrates the questionable power advantage the shotgun may have within the scope of its usefulness. Holleee shit batman, look at the charts I placed above.

    5) Ammunition Selection. On the subject of ammo and its usefulness, 00 buckshot is what your defensive shotgun should be loaded with. I prefer not to deal in absolutes. Actually, (if you can get it) Federal LE132-1B (12 GA 2 ĺ IN BUCKSHOT, Low Recoil, 15 Pellets – 1 Buck) is arguably better because:

    “Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ĺ-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 15 pellets of #1 buck.

    The total combined cross sectional area of the 15 pellets is .964 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 20 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

    In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker’s body.”


    Attachment 62553 Attachment 62554

    As for my family, our HD shotguns are loaded with Brenneke THD Slugs:

    Attachment 62555

    6) All This Being Said, Here Is An Idea Of What Your Defensive Shotgun Should Look Like: On the stock should be a means to carry reloads—these reloads need to be slugs if the shooter determines that they wish to use the shotgun as a multi-purpose weapon—there are various types of stock carriers and the carrier needs to be affixed to the stock in some way to keep it from moving during shooting. Once again, I hate absolutes, but IMO stock mounting ammo is a no-go at may station. My background is as a police instructor, and most shotguns are carried in units where it can't always be guaranteed that one of the person won't be left-handed. If the stocks are set up for right hand carry it isn't possible for the lefty to use it correctly. In addition to this, you should be able to fire the shotgun from the appropriate shoulder when using cover (yes, you can, close the other eye) a stock mounted carrier precludes this.

    Taken in totality, I overwhelmingly agree with what the OP wrote, I just have some problems with his skewing and absolutism.
    Dang 26..EXCELLENT & INFORMATIVE POST...thank you sir.
    The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than the cowards they really are.

  6. #226
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,873
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    I haven't really looked, I got gifted a couple of sleeves and haven't used it other than to pattern - bad guys are scarce in my life LOL. Plus, I use slugs for HD.

    It is out of stock every place I've looked, but, they all offered the 'notify me when back in stock option.' I knew it was hard to get but I didn't hear it had been discontinued. A lot of times they put lower demand stuff to the side in order to make higher demand stuff. I will call a source Tuesday to check if it has actually been discontinued.

    I found this on Shotgun World:

    Guys this is my first post here, and am just posting this to let others know that Federal has discontinued (permanently) the Flite Control #1 Buckshot Tactical LE132-1B cartridges. After not finding any in stock I emailed Federal and this is there reply:

    Quote:
    Hi ******, LE132 1B, 12 GA POLICE LOAD, is Discontinued and no longer available. The last time it shipped (all remaining inventory) was to Kiesler Police Supply Inc. 8/15/18. Thank you for your email and support.

    Attachment 62569
    That's too bad that was a great load.

  7. #227
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    9,907
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    That's too bad that was a great load.
    It was, but the LE shift from the shotgun to the patrol rifle as the primary long weapon has undoubtedly impacted police/tactical shotshell sales. Plus, agencies are tradition bound, they tend to buy the same stuff, in this case 00B.

    I credit Federal with at least trying.

    I have enough for the opening stages of the bugaloo.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ... 13212223

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •