The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

[TheGreenRanger24]

I find this an odd statement. If you're still here, it might be more productive for you to counter at least the comments with what you think is wrong with them. Obviously the initial post is too long to do that with, but if you'd elaborate on some of the high (low?) points I'd like to hear them.

Or is this an issue of "this article is counter to my business and the posts saying they agree with it only further enrage me"?

Me thinks you have a winner! While I can't say that everything in the article is 100% accurate (or not for that matter), I find it a little hard to take someone seriously when their tag has this quote: "If you are going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun, don't go." Now, if there was a rebuttal on a few points, I wouldn't say much (I do like shotguns btw, and do think they have their place). For someone on this forum to basically say, I'm not posting here anymore because of one article that I don't agree with, so now I'm leaving . . . well, either post some on what you don't agree with, or don't post about how you're leaving ('cause no one here cares). Not trying to be mean or such, but this forum tries not to deal so much with unnecessary drama.

[Beat Trash]

This is my opinion of course but the shotgun when compared to the patrol rifle overall comes up short. There is still a place for the shotgun in LEO work however. Its usefull as breaching tool, for deploying less lethal rounds and in rural areas its usefull when used as a big bore rifle to dispatch wildlife like bear and moose. In a gun fight however give me a good carbine any day of the week. More ammo, less recoil, range from 0 to 600 yards without having to switch ammo. The shotgun can be a respectable weapon in a gun fight but its range is limited, its more complicated to run due to having multiple types of ammunition to feed it. Its the weapon most officers have the most trouble with. (my observations as a firearms instructor.) The general move towards the patrol rifle is a good one in my opinion.
Pat

I agree about the comparison of the shotgun to the patrol rifle. Too many times over the years I was on a perimeter armed with a OO Buck loaded shotgun. When taking cover at 25-30 yds away with a stock 870, I always felt I was on the outside of the effective range with the gun.

With a patrol rifle, 25-30 yds is not even an issue.

My agency still has an 870 in every patrol car. We're an inter-city agency of around 1,100 officers. The ability to switch shotgun loads to slugs was never an option for uniform patrol. Supervisors used to have 5 rds of slugs in their cars to be used for putting down animals. THese were removed about 5 yrs ago.

I was pleasantly surprised when I read the original post. I agree with it for the most part.

Within it's effective range, the shotgun can be a very effective tool. It is not the blaster many believe it to be. Hollywood portrays the effects of the shotgun to be so destructive. We've all seen in the media where one round from a shotgun into a door blowing 6"-12" holes in the door. The hero then reaches through to unlock the door, or uses it for a gun port. My favorite is where one blast from a shotgun blows up vehicles. Even though it shouldn't, this stupidity does have an effect on the perception of the less informed.

Some people like to argue that their personal choice of weapons is superior to another's choice of weapon. This is often done so the individual can feel better about his personal choice. These types of individuals also tend to be annoying.

The shotgun can be an effective tool within it's envelope. It can be a very effective tool for home defense. I have been training with one for 28 years. I would not hesitate to use one to defend my home if called upon to do so.

But is it better than an AR for this purpose? I personally don't think so. My shotguns sit unloaded in my safe, right behind my loaded AR's.

[Jake'sDad]

This is my opinion of course but the shotgun when compared to the patrol rifle overall comes up short. There is still a place for the shotgun in LEO work however. Its usefull as breaching tool, for deploying less lethal rounds and in rural areas its usefull when used as a big bore rifle to dispatch wildlife like bear and moose. In a gun fight however give me a good carbine any day of the week. More ammo, less recoil, range from 0 to 600 yards without having to switch ammo. The shotgun can be a respectable weapon in a gun fight but its range is limited, its more complicated to run due to having multiple types of ammunition to feed it. Its the weapon most officers have the most trouble with. (my observations as a firearms instructor.) The general move towards the patrol rifle is a good one in my opinion.
Pat

20 years ago I would have thought you were crazy. "Ain't no gun I'd rather have kickin' a door than an 870".

But even us old guys can learn. If I went back in the field tomorrow, it would be with an AR up front, and an 870 in the trunk.

[Zell959]

I read this and there is little I can agree with. The statement "the list of advantages of the shotgun as a defensive weapon is not a long one" sums up the entire write up and the subject view of the writer. Anyone beliving that statement has little understanding of this weapon and how it is deployed.

However, it is the comments made by the members of this forum in response to this write up that are enough to convince me this is not a forum I will continue to be associated with.

For the record, I would have been more than interested in hearing well articulated counter-points from someone holding an alternative viewpoint based on their professional experiences and expertise with shotguns, as it would have only made the discussion more interesting. Unfortunately, you chose to go in another direction...

[glocktogo]

I read this and there is little I can agree with. The statement "the list of advantages of the shotgun as a defensive weapon is not a long one" sums up the entire write up and the subject view of the writer. Anyone beliving that statement has little understanding of this weapon and how it is deployed.

However, it is the comments made by the members of this forum in response to this write up that are enough to convince me this is not a forum I will continue to be associated with.

[JEL458]

This is most likely. The guy goes from forum to forum with a club of fanboys who announce how super special he is. If you ever bring up any negative points about the shotgun or his methods he takes it like you slapped his wife.

Thank God I am not the only one to notice that. I felt like I was taking crazy pills for a while. He repeatedly refused to answer questions and then turned a little crazy when called out on it. I just assumed that the people who were touting his greatness were all mainly other accounts he had set up since they mostly had less than 10 posts and used the same horrible grammar and terminology that he uses both in his posts and on his website.

[Kyohte]

Thank God I am not the only one to notice that. I felt like I was taking crazy pills for a while. He repeatedly refused to answer questions and then turned a little crazy when called out on it. I just assumed that the people who were touting his greatness were all mainly other accounts he had set up since they mostly had less than 10 posts and used the same horrible grammar and terminology that he uses both in his posts and on his website.

Nope, you're not. I've tried to debate with him on several boards and his main come back is that you either "don't get it" or you don't have the credibility, or he'll call you a "keyboard commando" etc. He won't try and argue points with you, it's his way or the high way. I really think it is just a marketing ploy.

I don't want to derail the thread to talk about this guy anymore, though since I really think it isn't worth it (as he already excused himself from the discussion).

I will say that the shotgun is my weakest link, but it also fills no niche for me. If I never shot another one in my life, I could honestly be happy. That isn't to say that I don't have my fair share of them, or that I don't shoot them.

One of my complaints with the shotgun is that it has lagged behind every other type of weapon ergonomically. I can pick up an FAL, G3, AR-15, Sig 551, etc and operate it without too much confusion as to what goes where (not to say that I'll be as fast at it as I am with my AR, but I could operate it competently).

Shotguns are all different. Is the safety on the tang or trigger guard? Front or rear of the trigger guard? I almost wish that there was an shotgun AR upper (I know the technical difficulties associated with this), just so I could have familiar controls.

I think it's lack of attention from the serious firearms development manufacturers really says something about the platform. It's role in military and law enforcement is rapidly shrinking. I always had the notion that it was in law enforcement because of it's familiarity to new recruits and it's intimidation factor. Times are changing. Now most people know what an AR-15 platform can do, and many agencies are starting to realize that the shotgun that used to be thought of as "jack of all trades" isn't.

There are still, however, a large percentage of the firearm owning population that simply cannot get over mysticism of the shotgun. It's these people that keep Taurus in business, and keep Mossberg putting out it's "chainsaw".

[TheGunman]

I like shotguns and I dont care who knows it


Atleast in my area, it does do everything i need it to. I can hunt with it and protect myself with it. Its fairly accurate and the furthest i would go out with it would be 100 yds and thats with slugs. I can hunt deer, turkey etc. And honestly its just fun too shoot and seriously thats the only reason i need.

[Kyohte]

I like shotguns and I dont care who knows it


Atleast in my area, it does do everything i need it to. I can hunt with it and protect myself with it. Its fairly accurate and the furthest i would go out with it would be 100 yds and thats with slugs. I can hunt deer, turkey etc. And honestly its just fun too shoot and seriously thats the only reason i need.

That's just fine. If you need something that can hunt multiple types of game and still be adequate to protect your house, a shotgun might be for you.

The general purpose of this forum, however, is not for hunting. What is grating everyone's nerves around here isn't that people are saying that they like shotguns. It's the people who (usually without fact based evidence to back it up) are saying that shotguns are the best choice for everyone, all the time, be ye soldier, cop, or just a person interested in protecting his/her family.

[decodeddiesel]

First of all I really think this should be sticky'ed.

Secondly, I really do love my 18.5" 590A1. It is perhaps the most challenging yet fun defensive weapon to practice with on the range. I have carried a shotgun in combat...for breaching and shooting nuisance cats with "less than lethal" rounds . There is a god damn good reason our war fighters are equipped with M16s and M4s and not 870s or 590s as primary weapons.

I read this and there is little I can agree with. The statement "the list of advantages of the shotgun as a defensive weapon is not a long one" sums up the entire write up and the subject view of the writer. Anyone beliving that statement has little understanding of this weapon and how it is deployed.

However, it is the comments made by the members of this forum in response to this write up that are enough to convince me this is not a forum I will continue to be associated with.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.