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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #1
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    Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

    Guys,

    I have been thinking on this for some time now after reading Paul Howe's article "Training for the real fight" posted on his site: http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf


    Excerpt from the article:
    "Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots. When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solid hit when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to.
    As for shooting and closing on a target, it only makes the bad guys accuracy better and walking into a muzzle may help you to test your new vest sooner than you wanted to. Diagonal movement works, but again if you have to slow down too much, you are an easy target, and are generally in the open. Speed can act as your security in this case to get you to a point of cover."


    I am 99% in agreement with Howe on this topic, but im looking for others opinions on his view, specifically opposing ones. Keep in mind my point of view on this is coming from a law enforcement mindset. I am not interested in the application of shooting on the move relating to competition shooting. I am strictly referring to it in the context of a life or death, deadly force encounter.

    Looking forward to the discussion....

    Stay safe,
    Nick

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    I've read comments similar to that before. I'd be interested to hear from others besides Howe that advocate one way or another, but I've trained with, and heard from, other trainers with real-world experience that still include it in their instruction.

    I'm not sure what learning to do it hurts though. Other than taking time away from training other things? and if we're only going to train on shooting from static positions, what else is there left to learn in shooting (vs. TTPS)?

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    Like RobS I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about the topic. I too have trained with the same instructor as Rob and they teach shooting on the move and have been in real world fights.

    I think it has the most use for building raides and searches. In these situations you are moving quickly from room to room and may have to take a bad guy while moving down the hall way to the next room etc..

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    While it is never preferable to shoot while moving there are applications for it. For example if you are the lead guy moving in a trench and you have to move to create enough room for the rest of your team or squad to join you. They may have just made a pretty long sprint to get to that trench and if you get held up your squad is going to be bunched up and in a bad way. Also if you are in the assault unit closing on an objective such as a building eventually you will cut off the support units suppression because you have come to close to their gun target line. If a bad guy shows himself at the last minute your best bet is to shoot him while moving to get yourself out of the open and to gain a foothold in the objective. And while I am not the biggest fan of dynamic entry there are lots of times when it is your only choice and its pretty obvious that they require the ability to shoot on the move.
    Sweat saves blood, blood saves lives, but brains saves both.

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    We had this discussion in our training team a while back. I hate to use the words always and never when it comes to training somebody. It just removes options. (There are hard and fast rules on somethings) BUT...I see his point for sure in an open air environment. I think it is more applicable in the CQB world. Room entries with short distances and reduced reaction time where you may be on the move when the shot has to happen. Where does most of this training take place? In an open air environment on a square range, so I think students associate it with being used in that environment. If you've ever shot moving targets at distance, you can see that hitting something moving at a walking pace is not that hard. Know the skill set, apply it in the appropiate situation.

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    If you "have" to shoot on the move you most certainly will be glad you trained for it
    "First gett'n shot, then gett'n married... baaaad habits"

    "If you're gonna subscribe to hero worship, at least worship a real hero."
    M4Guru

    Gal 2:20

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    I the it would be helpful for this discussion if credentials and experience are explicitly stated rather than assumed to be known. I am interested in hearing lots of opinions but want to be able to weigh them.

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    I have been in SWAT five years and currently serve as a team leader on a 37 man team. I have had the good fortune to train with manyl great instructors including several times with Paul Howe.

    I agree with Nick's statement, however I do think shooting on the move should be included in training for certain people, reason being if you are the first through a door as part of a team or two man element dumping in to a room and while entering the room you incounter a lethal threat and begin servicing him with rounds, you need to shoot while moving to get out of the doorway so that the number two man or team can help clear the room and flow through the structure.

    I am not talking walking a great distance shooting, but getting to a point of domination in the room (getting out of everone's way).

    Put yourself in the badguys perspective. If you were the badguy could you make a lethal hit at a target walking that slow? I think 99% of the guys on this forum could.

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    To build on what duece9166 said....

    Imagine you are the bad guy and are used to being the dominate force Alpha male etc....and all of sudden someone (LEO/Mil) is coming at you quickly with a gun and forcing you the bad guy out of your comfort zone...I think there is some psyhological effects at play here too.

    Just kind of thinking out loud...

    I'm just a regular guy who takes training seriously.

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    I'm just a civilian who has had the good fortune of training with some great instructors, but I invested in SOTM training and practice it every now and then because I can visualize instances where it may be a practical skill to have, such as moving down a long hallway in home getting to my kids, or moving between parked cars in a parking lot. It may or may not be useful, I don't know. But I figured that in such a circumstance, human nature would probably be to pull the trigger while moving under stress, and having some training may increase accuracy over not having any at all. I can also say that when I first learned the skill, I was very slow while ingraining the fundamentals, but continue to move faster while still holding myself to an accuracy standard (a fist sized group in the chest box of a VTAC target). Don't think I'll ever get to the point where I can shoot in full out run, but I can move fairly quick, albiet while the targets are not shooting back and don't move around.

    All that said, I can see Mr. Howe's point, and it does deserve serious consideration. Off line of attack drills may be more appropriate and applicable in the real world.

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