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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #41
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    I've actually found myself firing while on the move when doing training, when we took contact, i returned fire while moving to cover. it wasn't well aimed or accurate shots, but rounds to put the bad guys head down while I moved to cover. besides that the only Time I've ever shot while moving was when clearing a room. I think it's something good to have but not necessarily something to be as proficient on as opposed to firing from unnatural positions. That's just my $.02
    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
    -Ernest Hemingway

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianS View Post
    What do you mean by background problems?
    No-shoots in the background. A shooting problem that occurs, say, in a crowded shopping mall is going to require a level of "guaranteed" accuracy that a war-zone might not. If the problem happens in the food court of the local mall, then shots that do not hit the only safe backstop (that being COM of your assailants) are not acceptable. If you're in Durka-Durkaville, the standard may be less stringent.

    Rosco

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco Benson View Post
    No-shoots in the background. A shooting problem that occurs, say, in a crowded shopping mall is going to require a level of "guaranteed" accuracy that a war-zone might not. If the problem happens in the food court of the local mall, then shots that do not hit the only safe backstop (that being COM of your assailants) are not acceptable. If you're in Durka-Durkaville, the standard may be less stringent.

    Rosco
    Even over there, the ROEs have become more stringent. More and more, there is accountability. If you're in the middle of nowhere, no prob on the background. But in the cities...its a big deal. Thats been my experience anyway.
    Last edited by tomalibrando; 01-30-11 at 18:51.

  4. #44
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    Since background was asked for:
    12 years Airborne/Light Infantry, 12 years security work, currently on an SRT team. Multiple Training courses, Federal and private.

    I thin if someone hadn't questioned Mister Howes integrity awhile back, perhaps he would chime in here to clarify his position. I've trained with him multiple times, and IIRC he believes shooting on the move is a 7 yard and in skill.
    Pat Rogers has you do it from 25mtrs
    LAV, as recall somewhere around 15, which is also where my current organizations requires you to qual on SOM. I think 15 mtrs is about the practical limit.

    One needs to differentiate from "green" infantry type operations, and "black" hostage rescue/CQB type operations, where more precision is generally required.

    As noted, when clearing rooms/structures as part of a team, one can not stop to shoot, or for a shot team mate, etc. as this will cause the entire stack to stumble. The priority is to get thru the door. Once your reach your point of domination, yea, you'll probably "Stand and deliver".

    I've talked to members of a very active and respected SWAT team, and they know for a fact, well trained shooters, will "groucho" walk on an entry. You do what you are trained to do. If you can not move at a good pace and shoot accurately, you need to train more. You do not need to run.

    Yes, much of this is directed at .mil and LE type operators. This is why you need to vet the instructor you intend to train with, learn his background, and what and why he teaches in his course. It may not be for you. Also, they can only expose you to TTP's, concepts, etc in 3 days, not turn you into a commando.

    One thing I disagree with, is the interpretation of various videos and FoF AAR's. Much like the "point shooting" arguments, I do not believe, you should just throw up your arms in despair(figuratively) and say "well this is what I'm gonna do" or "this is all I can hope to do under stress". Ya ever wonder why fighter pilots aren't crashing left and right?
    What I think you need to do, is understand what is needed, and train to do that. That means delivering accurate rapid fire to an adversary. That almost always means using your sights, perhaps backpedaling, turning around and running, or looking for cover that is too far away, is not the best solution.

    When hommie is holding his gat above eye level and sideways, throwing bullets out of it, perhaps finding your front sight, and putting two to the body, is a better solution then running for cover that may or may not be there.

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco Benson View Post
    No-shoots in the background.
    No, we didn't have any no shoots in the background. Our accuracy goal was A zone hits on a negative target and most of the class was able to maintain that standard while moving pretty quickly. Because of the nature of the movement (as much of a circle as we could do while staying safe) a shot could have passed through the negative portion of the target, a perfectly good hit, and still struck a no shoot target.
    Last edited by BrianS; 01-31-11 at 01:40.

  6. #46
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    Paul has spoken about SOTM in classes in the past and I understand his take on the skill. The downsides are obviously that it does take a lot of practice to remain proficient at and it has fairly severe range limitations. Given that traditional SOTM practice takes away from practice time for other skill sets I don't emphasis it, but rather introduce the subject, give a bit of practical exposure for the student to work with later on if they want to and then press on to other materials.

    The bottom line is that I want to get them used to deploying the weapon under movement, but I also don't want to get tied down in 'this is the only way to move/shoot or shoot on the move'.
    Kelly H
    Yes, I know. No, I won't tell you.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSGlock34 View Post
    Last year I took Ernest Langdon's Advanced Tactical Pistol Skills course. I'd say his curriculum has an emphasis on shoot on the move skills. He made two points that have stuck with me - the first was "Proximity negates skill." At close range, even an unskilled adversary can place effective fire. Increasing distance between you and a threat favors the trained combatant.

    The second was "Nobody stays still in a gunfight." Langdon's class incorporates a review of shooting fundamentals, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, and finally shooting moving targets while on the move. This is the only class where I have ever performed the latter drill, and I was surprised that I was able to get effective hits on a mover while retreating myself.

    Personally, I've noted a marked difference between shooting on the move in an IDPA competition setting and the same skill in a more tactical course. I've watched IDPA competitors take little shuffling steps while 'shooting on the move' - technically they were moving but what they were really doing was going as slow as possible so as to get '-0' hits. The instructors I've had with more of a combat mindset emphasized more urgent movement. Accuracy certainly suffered under these conditions, but not to the point where the shots weren't useful.

    I'm very heavily involved in IDPA (Asst. Match Director for the 2011 IDPA World Shoot) and rated 4 gun Master, all through placement at IDPA National Championships. I have 4.5 years USMC and 10 years LE, but I'll tackle it from a civilian defensive perspective. There are plenty of guys on here more qualified to answer from the mil/LE perspective.

    E.L. is correct. That silly shuffling shit they do in IDPA drives me insane. I constantly preach that IDPA is good to test gun handling skills, equipment and particularly to teach you what you cannot do under stress, but it's terrible for tactics. If you're gonna shoot on the move as a civilian, you'd best be hauling ass!

    I think teaching to move off center rapidly while doing Bill Drill type shooting is a critical skill for the CCW permit holder. Every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached to it, but every bullet your assailant fires has your death certificate attached to it! I could care less whether I drop a bad guy, but I damned sure don't want to get shot!

    If you have to cross a hallway in your home to get to the kid's bedroom, do you want to shoot across your body as you move normally across the opening, or sprint across? Personally I'm sprinting. In many cases, sprinting away to cover would be much preferred to shooting on the move. But just for those occasions where it may be just you and the bad guy, does anyone ever practice shooting one handed while running full sprint for area suppression fire? If there's no one else around, the only thing I than think of that would top running at full speed, would be running at full speed while sending rounds toward my assailant to spoil his aim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco Benson View Post
    No-shoots in the background. A shooting problem that occurs, say, in a crowded shopping mall is going to require a level of "guaranteed" accuracy that a war-zone might not. If the problem happens in the food court of the local mall, then shots that do not hit the only safe backstop (that being COM of your assailants) are not acceptable. If you're in Durka-Durkaville, the standard may be less stringent.
    Rosco
    In a lot of cases like that, there is no firing solution unless you're nearly in contact range. Just get the hell out and find some cover or evacuate the area. Once you've gained cover and the friendlies have either hit the ground or left as well, then you can take more accurate shots from cover.
    Last edited by glocktogo; 01-31-11 at 14:32.

  8. #48
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    Besides countering an unwanted move by an assailant, wouldn't it come to mind that firing rounds while moving through an area of no cover would provide some sort of "covering fire" (rather than aimed fire) in order to force an assailant to keep his head down while you are on the move to cover...thus reducing the likelihood of taking incoming rounds while exposed?

    Just a thought...
    A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizensoldier16 View Post
    Besides countering an unwanted move by an assailant, wouldn't it come to mind that firing rounds while moving through an area of no cover would provide some sort of "covering fire" (rather than aimed fire) in order to force an assailant to keep his head down while you are on the move to cover...thus reducing the likelihood of taking incoming rounds while exposed?

    Just a thought...
    Unaimed supressive fire in a Civilian gunfight? Unless its just you and him in the desert somewhere you are ASKING for jail time.

    Rick
    Last edited by BooneGA; 01-31-11 at 18:21.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BooneGA View Post
    Unaimed supressive fire in a Civilian gunfight? Unless its just you and him in the desert somewhere you are ASKING for jail time.

    Rick
    I train to aim all my suppressive fire.

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