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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #61
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    I've been thinking about this for the last few days.

    What needs to be considered is:

    Why are you moving?
    Why are you shooting?
    What is the accuracy you require?

    We are taught to move only as fast as you can accurately engage the adversaries.
    In the Hackathorn video, he readily admits one of the three rounds he fired was useless. The others fired, would not be to our standards.
    I've trained with Ken, so no hack on him, but for the situation he was demoing, that may not be sufficient.

    In a hostage rescue type operation, it would not be.

    In the Hackathorn video, the primary objective is to move the principle out of the area, moving quickly, while "suppressing" an adversary may be the way to go. Other team mates, who are not moving the principle, will be able to deliver more accurate fire.

    In a HR type situation, you are moving toward the threat, through the building, clearing rooms. The primary purpose is to get to the adversary, and deliver PRECISION fire to him, with out causing damage to the hostage, or vital equipment.
    In this case, speed becomes secondary to your accuracy. While moving thru the target building, you must be prepared to accurately engage any adversaries along your route.
    Once, the location of the hostage is found, you must move into the room quickly, and dominate it, the primary reason for moving is to overwhelm the adversary, and get everyone into the room, and out of the "fatal funnel". Doing this smoothly, will be fast enough, and allow you to take a high percentage shot.

    Stepping off the line of attack, is another matter all together, in my mind. I also see no reason for to run, headlong into a gun fight firing all over the place. That gets us "killed" all the time in FoF scenarios.

    Obviously, the more you practice, the quicker your pace will get, and the more accurate you'll be able to engage. Volume of fire, in an open field Infantry type of engagement is one thing, volume of fire in the above situations, may be detrimental. I would much rather an operator, be able to deliver 2-3 rounds, accurately to a small vital zone, or a single head shot, then rip of 5-7 rounds all over the target. Now, if you can fire the 5 rounds all into the zone, go for it.

    I come from teh school of thought, that accuracy should never be sacrificed for speed.

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  2. #62
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    My agency has recieved some fantastic training from Lou Chiodo of Gunfighters Ltd in So Cal. He teaches shooting on the move extensively when at close quarters. As distances increase the need to move/shoot is less (and less effective also), but when someone is 10' - 15' away and blazing away at you as fast as he can work the trigger you dont want to stand there and take hits as you return fire. You're not necessarily moving for cover so much as moving rather than stand there as a target 10' from a bad guy's muzzle. Circumstances may not allow for movement of course, furniture, layout of the room, etc but when possible consider not just standing there is the point. Yes you're firing, but so is the bad guy - multiple rounds per second at YOU.

    In the extensive training we've had with Lou we've come to the point using 9mm P226's to where we put 4 to 5 rounds per second ON TARGET at short distances, including when on the move. This is something that requires training and alot of ammo, but it can be done. I've seen it and done it myself. Not only this but even officers with lower skill levels in firearms handling adapt to this well with time and training.

    A great way to hone this skill and alot cheaper too, is with airsoft guns. We have role-play scenarios where we practice the shoot/move and you can see your rounds hitting the bad guy dead-center in the torso as you're BOTH moving and shooting at each other. With live ammo on steel targets you find the same results.

    Lou uses a shot timer with each officer in qualifications and 4 to 5 rounds per second center mass at 7 yards or less is routine once you've trained enough. We don't use sights at all at those distances, it's point shooting or eye level shooting where your eyes are glued to the threat the entire time. This is accomplished with proper stance, grip and lots of trigger time.

    Agencies who have trained with Lou Chiodo find their officers performances in shootings is dramatically improved - up into the 90% hits category compared to 50% or less which is average in many shootings.

    Lou travels around the country teaching police departments, SWAT teams, military units, etc. He's by far the best I've seen or met in 26 years on the job as a street cop in So Cal.
    Last edited by arizonaranchman; 02-08-11 at 21:09.

  3. #63
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    shooting on the move
    good for squad based tactics
    you can't have 4 guys walking into a room and one at a time they stop in the doorway to take a shot, they all have to go in and if necessary shoot as they enter

    same as if you were by yourself
    enter through doorway, don't stop, look in areas you couldn't see before, see threat, shoot on the move

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    In the Hackathorn video, he readily admits one of the three rounds he fired was useless. The others fired, would not be to our standards.
    I've trained with Ken, so no hack on him, but for the situation he was demoing, that may not be sufficient.

    In a hostage rescue type operation, it would not be.
    You have some very high standards for dignitary protection shooting, especially from the guy escorting the dignitary, shooting one handed, moving away while pushing someone. 3 of 3 hits, 2 would probably be very effective to buy you some time to more effectively evac. This is definitely not HRT type shots and of course we need to take in the totality of the backstop issue. We also need to consider that perhaps PSD teams overseas may have a bit of a different mind set, protocols or situations then we in LE may have domestically.

    In the Hackathorn video, the primary objective is to move the principle out of the area, moving quickly, while "suppressing" an adversary may be the way to go. Other team mates, who are not moving the principle, will be able to deliver more accurate fire.
    Teaching exactly what Ken is teaching is very valuable. We never know what situation our security details may end up in. Are there multiple active threats that your team may be engaging and you are forced to shoot?

    Without getting too deep, primary planning includes secondary ambush considerations, as we now that is an effective method of attack by the bad guys. Your team is split, guys down, heck it might only be you and the Dig left. Again this technique that Ken shows is very critical for shooting on the move and is pretty much taught by every big name xyz organization that I can think of. And if there are those who are not practicing this, then IMO they should be.

    During our dignitary protection training, we do a lot FoF ambush and secondary ambush situations. You may very well be the only one or two left and shooting on the move to save the life of the guy your are dragging along and yourself may be a must. We don't know what may happen and what we may be forced to do. Never say never and don't say always.

    In a HR type situation, you are moving toward the threat, through the building, clearing rooms. The primary purpose is to get to the adversary, and deliver PRECISION fire to him, with out causing damage to the hostage, or vital equipment.
    In this case, speed becomes secondary to your accuracy. While moving thru the target building, you must be prepared to accurately engage any adversaries along your route.
    Once, the location of the hostage is found, you must move into the room quickly, and dominate it, the primary reason for moving is to overwhelm the adversary, and get everyone into the room, and out of the "fatal funnel". Doing this smoothly, will be fast enough, and allow you to take a high percentage shot.
    Just speaking for myself and my unit (full time unit of 50 guys), the majority of our CQB type of operations are not necessarily HRT situations. Mostly search warrant initiated operations, or barricade situations. Of course they can easily turn into an HRT situation, but shooting on the move in a team manner is critical and we do not necessarily need to be taking more methodical pin point head shots when faster combat accuracy hits can be made. Keeping up a quick pace, clearing the doorway and getting guns into a room may dictate a quicker pace. So in essence a faster pace with combat accuracy may be better suited for a situation then a very slow pace or coming to a stand still for that precision shot. We also do not like guys changing gears while entering a room. We do not want a break neck pace that we cannot get accurate hits, but we do not want a slow pace or the pace to slow down. Especially when we don't know the situation within the room. Possible multiple threats etc.

    I come from teh school of thought, that accuracy should never be sacrificed for speed.

    Bob
    Agreed. However the situation will dictate the type of movement, rate of speed and type of accuracy needed. Do we need precision head shots, or will combat accuracy center mass be better? Shooters skills and abilities will dictate much. So in essence the more one trains the accuracy and speed should increase.
    Last edited by Surf; 02-09-11 at 00:23.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    with combat accuracy

    Surf

    People have different standards of combat accuracy (some very high and some very low) and it might help eliminate possible thread derailment if you provide your definition of "combat accuracy".

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR View Post
    Surf

    People have different standards of combat accuracy (some very high and some very low) and it might help eliminate possible thread derailment if you provide your definition of "combat accuracy".
    Excellent point.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Without getting too deep, primary planning includes secondary ambush considerations, as we now that is an effective method of attack by the bad guys. Your team is split, guys down, heck it might only be you and the Dig left. Again this technique that Ken shows is very critical for shooting on the move and is pretty much taught by every big name xyz organization that I can think of. And if there are those who are not practicing this, then IMO they should be.
    I spent some time working on a 7 man domestic PSD, but not everyone who does this type of work gets the luxury of a full time 24/7 team. Many work alone and you'd better be able to move your principal AND deflect or defeat the threat at the same time.

  8. #68
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    Sorry that may help.

    Short answer / definition -
    I define combat accuracy as acceptable hits that may significantly affect your targets ability to return effective fire.

    Long Answer / clarification
    I like to give a definition that is similar to what I once heard defined by Rob Pincus. I arrive at this point not because of any training that I received from him because I have not trained with him. I have held this concept long before I knew of Rob, however his definition is probably better than I may have worded it so I use a similar definition.

    I define combat accuracy as acceptable hits that may significantly affect your targets ability to return effective fire. Basically get as many rapid hits as possible in vital areas that makes your adversary react to what you are doing to him. Basically putting his OODA loop reacting in response to our actions and not vise versa. This is obviously aided with the addition of potentially lethal hits quickly and accurately which will also start the rapid incapacitation that we desire via blood loss.

    In a perfect world, my ideal hit zone would be a shot that destroys the CNS at a high spot at or near the head. However hitting a moving head while I am moving may not be practical for the situation. So then I would seek out hits in the high upper center mass. Or about an 8"-10" zone that would cover the main vitals. As many of these hits as quickly as possible within this zone until the threat ceases to exist, or until you have provided yourself the time to exfil / evac, make it to cover, cleared a doorway etc or provided yourself the ability to attain a shooting platform that may allow for a more precise shot all while significantly affecting the target ability to return accurate fire with your rapid well place hits. Lastly hits in the center of the target presented or offered. If I am in a lethal force encounter if I have only a leg, I am going to take what I can.

    Again, hitting a moving head may be extremely difficult, but an upper torso may be easier. The shooter needs to be able to instantly judge the situation and decide on their actions. Would it be more advantageous to keep our pace rapid and make numerous "combat accurate" hits, or are we in a situation where we can provide a better platform to make a more precise hit? There are times and places for both and without the ability to perform both skills our options are severely limited. These skills only come through repetition of correct training and / or experience.

    I believe that there are instances, mostly relegated by the situation and shooters skill levels that may call for combat accurate hits where precision shots may not be the best option, or may not be an option at all. As a example, if we look at Ken's dignitary video, I would consider at least 2 of those 3 hits combat accurate, or hits that would have a high potential of significantly affecting our targets ability to counter attack. At that point Ken has the advantage and Kens target would more than likely be reacting at that point, giving him a better advantage then having not fired.

    If there is a need for Ken to shoot in that instance, deadly use of force was justified in an instantaneous situation and more than likely shots or incoming shots are being fired. Of course there are no guarantees in life especially when it comes to the good guys shooting the bad guys, but what would I rather do? Haul my dignitary off without engaging the target, or would I spin him and take the hits that Ken placed on target at the same time? I personally would prefer Kens option. Of course everything is situational dependent, but having that practiced skill is a very good thing. I can say with utmost certainty that someone in the role that Ken was playing, is more than likely not going to be able to take a single deliberate well placed shot.

    Also as I eluded to in my above post, we cannot guarantee the situation that our protection detail may be in if / when the attack happens or if part of the team breaks contact and encounters a secondary ambush. I have been to places where some units did the classic maneuver to break contact as part of the team engages. I have seen the guys who broke contact with the dignitary in tow, all huddled around him as a shield while whisking him off only to run into a planned secondary ambush. The kicker being, none of them had even pulled a weapon. We can guess what happens then. This is not too uncommon from old school dignitary days of yesteryear. So basically we may need to have to be able to defend while towing around dead weight.

    In my video I posted, I am moving at a bit faster of a pace than a normal room entry in a team environment, yet I am getting what I consider combat effective hits while doing it from 15 yards or so within the 8" paster on the target. It is a very viable option and one that is necessary in many team situations. Within my skill level this is the distance and speeds that I can maintain about 90% hits on the *' paster. Of course this is on a static target and maintaining combat accuracy. If I slow to a normal speed of room entry and normal room distances, head shots are very viable at speed. But if we don't train, we won't have the skill and without the skill, we don't have the option available to us. Again I will say there is a time to shoot, a time to move, a time to haul ass and a time to be able to shoot while moving.

    I would also clarify there is a big difference in HRT type shooting / situations. However most officers, even tactical teams in CQB environments are not as often faced with an HRT situation. Normally daily operations, even call outs are less often are pure HRT related. In true HRT we often we give up much because often one shot accuracy is highly desirable. Also our butts are not #1 on the list. The hostage is.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocktogo View Post
    I spent some time working on a 7 man domestic PSD, but not everyone who does this type of work gets the luxury of a full time 24/7 team. Many work alone and you'd better be able to move your principal AND deflect or defeat the threat at the same time.
    Agree completely. Our city is hosting a rather large event this year. 21 heads of state that all require PSD's. 5 heads of state that get US Presidential style protection. My entire unit (50 guys) is dedicated to POTUS. Imagine the logistics and manpower nightmares. Not just the dignitaries but families, so yes some details are going to be very limited on numbers and will not have the luxury of maybe even 7 guys. Some details will be required to do the full deal, motorcade and hand holding, so yes they need to be able to move someone and defend if necessary. The majority of my year involves teaching numerous dig pro courses to a lot of teams and small PSD's are the focus.

    One cool thing is that we are bringing in the NTOA MACTAC for a closed course here. Going to Pittsburgh would have been more fun, but hey, I'll take what I can.

  10. #70
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    Surf, let me clarify, and I probably should proof read better.

    -For the situation Ken is demoing, yes that kind of accuracy is probably sufficient.

    -For my most likely scenario, it may not be.

    - Dignitary protection/PSD is not part of out METL. We don't do it. Though I did spend 3 weeks training with Triple Canopy, a few years ago. As I recall they had some high shooting standards, and I don't recall being taught what Ken was showing. Though it certainty looks more then viable.

    - Our primary task is what we call Recapture/Recover operation. Recapturing vital facilities or material, is analogous to Hostage Rescue, in fact it may involve hostages, but they are not the priority.

    - We have to plan for the true believer, highly motivated, possibly wearing heavy armor, & well armed. Peripheral hits, may not impress them.

    -Additionally, vital equipment, components, pipes, tubes, wires, etc. need to be taken into account. Rupturing tanks and vessels, or severing lines, may not be in our best interest.

    -Wearing full SCBA is also a possibility, and officer down scenarios, may find the officer being used for cover, more then being extracted

    - We also are tasked with active shooter type scenarios, which can be a crap shoot, but depending on the facility, will be treated the same.

    -Combat accuracy: Depends. At my current employer the standard DOE target, "5" ring is used, about 10 x 11. In general we strive for better. Other times, we go by the "vitals" of the photo targets, so much smaller. When I train on my own, I use the reduced DOE target, with a 5.5 x 6 "5" ring and 3" head shot. Or the CSAT target, and grade them like Howe does, its in or its out.

    -Pace: I've always been taught to move only as fast as you and your team can shoot accurately. And, to maintain the same pace, no slowing down and speeding up. So it may vary from operator to operator, and team to team, but it eventually evens out.

    As stated it all situation dependent, or as we used to say, METT-T. There is a time to haul ass down a hallway, when its made of 6 feet thick concrete with no openings, and a time to move down it at a slower pace. When its filled with doorways and unknowns, and you need to maintain better SA, and be prepared to engage. Moving to the target structure, may involve fire and maneuver, much like an Infantry scenario.

    As also noted, the more you train, the better you should get. You'll be able to move faster and shoot more accurately, just don't sacrifice the accuracy you want/need or leave your team behind, or play catch up with them.

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

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