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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #71
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    If I may add something, based on what we saw with our shooters...

    You have to push the pace beyond what you are comfortable with to see what you are capable of. I practically had to walk behind some of the guys while shoving them to get them to speed up. Even when they were going well beyond keeping hits in the 8" circle and were in fact drilling the middle of it out. Some of these guys probably could have doubled their pace, or halved their time, and still only seen a marginal increase in group size. There may be a time for that kind of precision when on the move, but that's not what we were asking for.

    Which takes me to something I'm always pushing with my guys, which is "get the hits you need to get in the time you have available". Had we more than 3 hours on the range I'd be able to dovetail that in more clearly to moving while shooting. I was going to get to the point of setting par times for getting from point A to point B to force guys to move at a specific pace.

  2. #72
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    As a former Marine MOUT instructor and current full time member of a TRF,I would add that the loud force of violence that is indicative of a CQB/CQC environment includes as many rounds into the room with as many guns into the room as possible, all as soon as you enter. That means that entry teams will have to shoot on the move. Also, shooting on the move might be useful when breaking contact in a combat evironment. "Oh shit" shouldn't happen, but it does. Situational awareness only goes so far. Rounds out are rounds out. Rounds on target are another thing entirely... Practice, practice, practice!
    So, a baby seal walks into a club...

    كافر FTW!

  3. #73
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    Better to have and not need, than to need and not have...

    FOF scenarios and simulated 2 way ranges have cemented the need for me to train as dynamically as possible. SOTM is a tool that can be used or ignored depending on the situation... I would rather have the comfort in my skill at arms in as many facets as necessary, wether I need it or dont, wether I have used it or will use it....that does not negate it from being useful.
    There is always a Black Swan lurking and I would much rather be prepared for its suprise appearance.
    "Everyone has been given a gift in life. Some people have a gift for science and some have a flair for art. And warriors have been given the gift of aggression. They would no more misuse this gift than a doctor would misuse his healing arts, but they yearn for the opportunity to use their gift to help others. These people, the ones who have been blessed with the gift of aggression and a love for others, are our sheepdogs. These are our warrior"

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt5811 View Post
    As a former Marine MOUT instructor and current full time member of a TRF,I would add that the loud force of violence that is indicative of a CQB/CQC environment includes as many rounds into the room with as many guns into the room as possible, all as soon as you enter. That means that entry teams will have to shoot on the move. Also, shooting on the move might be useful when breaking contact in a combat evironment. "Oh shit" shouldn't happen, but it does. Situational awareness only goes so far. Rounds out are rounds out. Rounds on target are another thing entirely... Practice, practice, practice!
    Since you're an instructor, I'd be interested to hear what progression you take the troops through form beginner level on.

    Thanks

  5. #75
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    Robb,
    You have to ask yourself, why are you moving and why are you shooting? What is the reason you want them to speed up? Just to see what they can do? I look at the 8" circle as a minimum, and usually want to shoot tighter then that.
    Speed will come.

    BlackLion,
    Understood, but the problem with that logic, is there is always a downside. What skill are you giving up, to gain another?
    LAV, said words to effect of,"until you can hit the bull on demand, you have no business learning to shoot under a car"
    I've heard similiar comments about weak hand shooting.

    Point, the time spend trying to master a little used skill, might be better spend trying to master the most important skill.
    "Better to have and not need" is what leads to 100 pound rucks.

    FoF scenarios, if not conducted properly, will cement alot of BS, also.

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  6. #76
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    In the trailer for Paul Howe's new video he can be seen shooting while moving into a room around 0:25. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhAsXCSMK0 All shots appear to be fired before he stopped.

    I think the point that's being made is that there is little use for attempting to shoot things 25 yards away while moving, that at any kind of distance you should either be sprinting somewhere with all your worth or slowing down and making an accurate shot.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    Rob,
    You have to ask yourself, why are you moving and why are you shooting? What is the reason you want them to speed up? Just to see what they can do? I look at the 8" circle as a minimum, and usually want to shoot tighter then that.
    Speed will come.
    That is exactly why. Or more importantly, for THEM to see what they can (or can't) do. IME with the type of shooters I get if they have any offhand experience at all it's with standing bolt upright at the public range shooting at a bullseye target. Manipulations are ****ed up, they're using to having a shooting bench as load-carriage, etc. but often they can drill the snot out of the center of the 8" ring once they get the thing loaded and settle in to their position they're used to (chicken-wing and all).

    A HUGE part of what I do with my guys is to try and push them to see what their limitations are. We'll push them and push them using the 8" circle, whether with speed, manipulations like reloading, shooting multiple targets, moving while shooting, various distances, etc. so that they can find their own limits. I want them to get to a point where they're not even getting all of their shots inside that circle. Then we'll put up a target with a 4x6 "scoring" zone, or a 3x5 index card on the target, and we'll ask them to perform the same drills but while hitting that card.

    I'm a big believer in knowing one's abilities and being able to get the hits you need in the time you have to get them. If the target we present the shooters with is an 8" circle then that's the hits they need. If the target we present them with is a 1" square target paster, then that's the hits they need.

    I think (hope?) it makes more sense over the long haul to the shooters that come out repeatedly, and may be harder to convey this way. I suspect, also, that I'm dealing with a different group of people than you are, or may be used to, with a much wider range of problems and motivations.
    Last edited by rob_s; 02-10-11 at 05:40.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Moran View Post
    Surf, let me clarify, and I probably should proof read better.

    -For the situation Ken is demoing, yes that kind of accuracy is probably sufficient.

    -For my most likely scenario, it may not be.

    - Dignitary protection/PSD is not part of out METL. We don't do it. Though I did spend 3 weeks training with Triple Canopy, a few years ago. As I recall they had some high shooting standards, and I don't recall being taught what Ken was showing. Though it certainty looks more then viable.
    Bob thanks for clarifying. Of course we really need to take into context what our role or the current scenario we are faced with and respond accordingly. In a PSD role Kens accuracy is very good for that situation. HRT, not so much, and I am sure he would agree. I come from the CS side of things, so when I deploy with a bolt rifle, precision is always my goal. So again thanks for clarifying the context in which you were coming from.

    Also a buddy of mine who is a Reserve Officer here, when he's in town, spent about 3 years with TC as an overseas TL but now does the training side of the house for TC domestically. I will have to hit him up on the current protocols.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If I may add something, based on what we saw with our shooters...

    You have to push the pace beyond what you are comfortable with to see what you are capable of.
    Robb, I know there are schools of thought where misses are unacceptable in training and that ideally 100% hits is the goal. However I feel that not only is this idea is impractical, I do not agree with it. Or more correctly this idea needs to be put into context for the desired goals of the training.

    So I do agree and train where I will eventually expect misses on certain drills. Certain drills that I run are designed to force misses, or more correctly to take a shooter outside of their comfort zone and force them to push their own limits and abilities. Basically to establish their baseline of their own personal balance of speed v. accuracy whether moving or static. This can show a shooter not only their limitations, it will often prove to them that they are capable of more than they may have believed themselves.

    Once that baseline is set for each shooter and they hit their their level of failure, this will show them where they need to keep their training at in order to progress to a higher level of proficiency. If you let shooters get comfortable they will often not wish to push themselves, cops included, even SWAT guys. Once it seems that they are getting good results and no longer look like they are progressing, time to take them out of their comfort zone again.

    It is better to determine your failure limits in training than when it's for real. If your gonna miss, it is better when in a controlled training environment when you are attempting to increase your skills or to understand your own personal limitations. Because as we know, most people are more then likely going to perform only as well as their worst day on the range, not their best day. So we need to push ourselves, so that even on our worst day, we are still pretty damn formidable and are better than the guy trying to take us out.

    At least that is my belief.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero View Post
    Part of that is because that cop has engaged his "reptillian brain" (as LAV likes to call it) and his instincts have told him to back up RTFN and get away from the threat. His instincts are telling him move away even as the higher order functions of his brain are telling him to engage the threat by drawing and shooting.

    It's not so much that he has to learn to shoot on the move, it's that he WILL be moving and he should thus be able to get hits that way. If that makes any sense.
    At a local defensive shooting class, that is what the instructors teach. Back up while you draw and shoot, because by the time you can consciously think about your legs the incident will more than likely be over and you'll be 10 feet behind where you started.

    I think the other good thing about moving and shooting is that it can get you a bit tired, which I think is an OK simulation of how shooting is affected by adrenaline. Even if that's not the case, it certainly shows you the holes in your shooting technique.

  10. #80
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    Great thread.
    I’ve been finding myself constantly saying, I didn’t know that or never thought of movement from that aspect or use.
    As a square range shooter who uses movement as a challenge or for competitive advantage….I wonder why am I quicker and more accurate moving backwards than forward? Is it a toe then heel balance thing?
    TIA

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