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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #91
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    Has anyone come across a real life situation (either first hand or video) where shooting while moving was ABSOLUTELY necessary? All post so far seem to talk about training. Is the training people are referring to based on previous real life experiences?

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
    We hear that a lot as an initial objection from mil/LE team members when we discuss this topic... and sometimes it is a valid concern... the fact is that it takes two guys to enter a room and they go in opposite directions as they enter... so, most of the contact is taking place at times when a lateral shift (as the gun comes up) and planting to shoot do not actually cause the feared pile-up. Under critical thought, most of students who have experienced those situations agree.

    Obviously, there is going to be a difference in tactics and techniques for guys who are moving towards the gunshots and people who will be using firearms defensively. I think shooting on the move because you are moving through a structure and on-balance can be thought of very different from training to shoot on the move defensively when caught off guard.

    -RJP
    I train my officers to step to the side as they draw to make themselves a harder target. There are times when shooting on the move will be necessary for a citizen with a CCW. Shooting while retreating is one such situation.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
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    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  3. #93
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    How about this. Back in 1997 had I moved when someone pulled a .45 on me and drew down on him, I probably wouldn't have been shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Kastl View Post
    Has anyone come across a real life situation (either first hand or video) where shooting while moving was ABSOLUTELY necessary? All post so far seem to talk about training. Is the training people are referring to based on previous real life experiences?



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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    I train my officers to step to the side as they draw to make themselves a harder target.
    Everything's a trade-off. I have heard of officers conditioned in this fashion sidestepping into traffic when drawing their weapon during a stop. Could be bad on a busy highway... ol' unintended consequences and everything. Not saying it's right or wrong.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Kastl View Post
    Has anyone come across a real life situation (either first hand or video) where shooting while moving was ABSOLUTELY necessary?
    A few

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Kastl View Post
    Has anyone come across a real life situation (either first hand or video) where shooting while moving was ABSOLUTELY necessary? All post so far seem to talk about training. Is the training people are referring to based on previous real life experiences?
    Yes...when the other guy(s) are shooting back. We have yet to see someone who is not behind cover, stand still when bullets start flying at them. Call us crazy, but we'd rather NOT test out our plates NIJ rating at that time. There are only a few ways to get someone to stop shooting at you: talk them out of it, make them unable to contine firing at you, or make them do something else (like get behind cover). Shooting while moving can be the most efficient soltuion to the proble at the time. Shooting on the move, whether you choose to use it or not, is still a fundamental skill: one that, once comfortable with, can be modified to fit the needs of the defensive or offensive situitation.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Kastl View Post
    Has anyone come across a real life situation (either first hand or video) where shooting while moving was ABSOLUTELY necessary?
    Watch video footage of gunfights. As much of it as you can find. I think you'll find that almost without exception once bullets start flying, people start moving.

    A few random examples:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=370_1221636728
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBFXLNR2kI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odfwi...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsbn1...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc0UGhPXmD0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWPUq...eature=related

    ....and I could literally spend the rest of the day pulling up links for dashcam/security video of real exchanges of gunfire where people are moving while they are pulling the trigger.

    Shooting on the move can happen in different circumstances. It can happen because someone is maneuvering into a better position on the threat while they are engaging it. There are two examples of that in the links I posted. It could be a blind fear reaction in reverse attempting to get away from the threat...there are examples of that in the links I posted. It could also be shooting while executing a carefully choreographed movement as you might see when a SWAT team makes entry into a room. It could be moving to cover, moving to get a background that isn't endangering innocents...etc.

    Absolutely necessary? I think that's the wrong question. In most of the actual footage of gunfights you'll find, I doubt you will see people who are debating whether or not they should move. They are simply acting, either on instinct to try and get away from the threat or as a result of training and mindset that's made them aggressive enough to close distance on or maneuver on the threat in order to put him down or clear the background for a shot.

  8. #98
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    I would like to clarify my above post to Rob P. I am more interested in getting an understanding of what is being done in SWAT units in certain regions that I don't get to frequent very often. RJP invariably works with and sees a lot and undoubtedly through his background has a lot of great insight and I am trying to tap that. I am not trying to be argumentative.

    I found it odd that it almost sounded as if from Rob P. dealings with SWAT units that it is almost a given that guys will invariably post up before shooting. Almost being such and inevitability than why train differently? The written word on the internet is often hard to interpret, so I am not sure on the meaning there and if I am getting the wrong meaning then I apologize. Hopefully he can expound upon this.

    As I see it, SOTM is a very much based around a shooters skill level. I do agree that most SWAT guys, especially those who may only get one day a month to train, might not have the time, ability or resources to cover everything given their restrictions. When we train outer agencies who are part time this is very apparent. Picking out a full time team and a part time team, especially ones that may be multi-jurisdictional, just by watching them work is usually quite obvious. I very much understand the bureaucracy issue in many organizations / agencies and the restrictions, so no knock on the guys trying to do a tough job with an uphill battle. However I do feel that I don't want to settle for less in a shooters skills and would prefer that they be able to perform at a high level of proficiency, which shooting on the move can give a huge advantage in many instances. I agree that with limited time and resources we may not be able to get as much skills down pat as we might wish and often the basics take priority, but I am definitely not going to say that SOTM is not a good skill set, or that it is too advances, so why bother. Advanced, yes. But I would never say never about learning and getting good and being able to perform it at a high level. I also find that people like to practice things they are good at. Most don't want to practice what they are not good at, which is exactly what we should ideally be trying to do.

    I will also say that if you are in LE and on a Tactical or SWAT unit, I sure hope you have these skills down if you ever find yourself in a real life aircraft or bus assault, or even some ship assaults. If you plan on running aisles as point or even other positions, you had best had some good training and skills in regards to movement and shooting.

  9. #99
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    I'm supprised that no one has looked at this the other way around and asked: "Why NOT practice SOTM?" Are there any disadvantages to practicing and improving on this skill? Yes it takes time & ammo...so do all the other fundamentals. We can not find any reason for not having this skill in the toolbox, whether we use it or not. Even if the traditional walking & shooting is just something to deviate from, it is a skill worth practicing at some level (depending on your shooting needs). Isn't the old phrase, "Shoot, Move, & Communicate?" There is no reason why we can't do them simultaneously.

  10. #100
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    The only downside is the misconception that there is actually a legit way to shoot on the move, ie the duck walk and that it MUST be done this way.

    Unfortunately, too many people are unable to get it through their heads that what a trainer tells you is not always gospel.

    Fluidity of movement and the dynamic nature of a confrontation needs to find its way into more modern training programs.

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