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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #11
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    Many of us have trained in "shoot on the move" in various classes and think it is a viable technique, but can only see it being employed for a home defense scenario IF necessary as a civilian, or if Military/LEO, assaulting an objective and room clearing. If caught in the open, I'm running my ass off to the nearest cover.

    Off line of attack drills may be more appropriate and applicable in the real world.
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    Agreed.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 01-29-11 at 11:27.
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  2. #12
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    Last year I took Ernest Langdon's Advanced Tactical Pistol Skills course. I'd say his curriculum has an emphasis on shoot on the move skills. He made two points that have stuck with me - the first was "Proximity negates skill." At close range, even an unskilled adversary can place effective fire. Increasing distance between you and a threat favors the trained combatant.

    The second was "Nobody stays still in a gunfight." Langdon's class incorporates a review of shooting fundamentals, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, and finally shooting moving targets while on the move. This is the only class where I have ever performed the latter drill, and I was surprised that I was able to get effective hits on a mover while retreating myself.

    Personally, I've noted a marked difference between shooting on the move in an IDPA competition setting and the same skill in a more tactical course. I've watched IDPA competitors take little shuffling steps while 'shooting on the move' - technically they were moving but what they were really doing was going as slow as possible so as to get '-0' hits. The instructors I've had with more of a combat mindset emphasized more urgent movement. Accuracy certainly suffered under these conditions, but not to the point where the shots weren't useful.

  3. #13
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    The biggest moving and shooting for a regular guy like me would be where someone makes an unwanted contact with me, and while I am backing away or walking away, that person decides to pull a knife or gun, and/or starts closing the distance to me.

    At that point, I need to know how to draw, aim in, and get hits while I am countering his movement -- most likely backing up for cover/concealment.

    Watch the video of the Detroit PD shootout. The commander on the floor was shooting on the move, that's the type of scenario I practice for, not the house to house firefight.
    "I'm not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The... tactleneck! - Sterling Archer"
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    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important
    than one's fear. The timid presume it is lack of fear that allows the brave to act when the timid do not."

  4. #14
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    I think that there's plenty of room for shooting on the move training as long as its appropriate. There's lots of areas where shooting on the move applies, look at entry teams like deuce9166 said, if you plant your feet as the first guy through the door, in the words of the internet, "you dun goof'd".

    Also, there is a plethora of dashcam videos and other very close range gunfights where accuracy plays second fiddle to speed and violence of action where it would undoubtedly be beneficial to shoot on a target while advancing on them or relocating.

    In a warfighting environment associated with longer distances and teammates who can provide security, I can see where Howe's comments are correct, but I also see plenty of opportunities in entry situations, or other close quarters when working alone where a person might have to take on two roles at once (firing on the BG while moving to a more advantageous position)
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdrak View Post
    Keep in mind my point of view on this is coming from a law enforcement mindset. I am not interested in the application of shooting on the move relating to competition shooting. I am strictly referring to it in the context of a life or death, deadly force encounter.
    For an officer, I would think a HUGE training item for shooting on the move would be an assailant seated in a MV, for which you identify his gun and his intent to use it.

    You need to be proficient in backing away, drawing, and getting hits at an angle through glass or car parts. Possibly doing all of those while also engaging the driver AND passenger.
    "I'm not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The... tactleneck! - Sterling Archer"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important
    than one's fear. The timid presume it is lack of fear that allows the brave to act when the timid do not."

  6. #16
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    I second Shivan

    In our dept. we have been stressing this skill greatly. We had State Troopers come and run our deputies and SRT through review and also implement new tactics since many times we operate solo in rural areas with backup greater than 15 mins away.

    These skills are one thing when you're in a stack, totally different ballgame solo. Train for both, your life depends upon it.
    Last edited by jklaughrey; 01-29-11 at 12:01.
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  7. #17
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    When I have trained with both LAV and Ken Hackathorn they both included shooting on the move in their instruction. I believe there baseline for doing so is that cover or concealment might not be available to you. If you find yourself in that situation being taught how to do so effectively can mean the difference between staying alive or becoming a victim.

    Ken studies countless hours of tapes of shootings and I believe he said the one thing that they all had in common was that guys don't stand still in gunfights and neither will you...

    I believe Howe and Lamb both advocate shooting from cover and engaging while popping out from cover and then moving back to cover...

    Personally I don't see a down side to learning the fundamentals of shooting on the move. Shooting on the move while engaging a moving target can be a humbling experience when you are first learning how to do so. Hell it can be humbling even when you have been taught....

    If you think about realistic engagements in civilian life I can certainly see the need for SOTM to be part of your fundament training. This might not be the case as a Unit member or on a battlefield. As a civilian I honestly cant speculate on what is "right" nor would I ever question Paul Howe on his reasoning...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVAN View Post
    You need to be proficient in backing away, drawing, and getting hits at an angle through glass or car parts. Possibly doing all of those while also engaging the driver AND passenger.
    Part of that is because that cop has engaged his "reptillian brain" (as LAV likes to call it) and his instincts have told him to back up RTFN and get away from the threat. His instincts are telling him move away even as the higher order functions of his brain are telling him to engage the threat by drawing and shooting.

    It's not so much that he has to learn to shoot on the move, it's that he WILL be moving and he should thus be able to get hits that way. If that makes any sense.

    This realization that we will move in those instinctive, survival type situations (I groaned as I typed that BTW) is the basis for the Threat Focused Shooting and similar schools that preach about reaction positions and indexed shooting. But even Hackathorn teaches that those bumpy things on top of the slide aren't necessarily needed at certain times and distances. So clearly there's some merit to their ideas.


    I think the difference for Howe is that he's talking about a different form of gunfight. I believe him when he says he never shot on the move in combat. The soldier faces different scenarios from a cop or a citizen carrying for self defense. A soldier has to supress lots of instincts to willingly walk into combat. A cop or citizen reacting to a sudden threat likely will not be able to do the same thing until the higher order brain functions kick in and the reptillian brain isn't in charge any more.
    Principles matter.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero View Post
    ... it's that he WILL be moving and he should thus be able to get hits that way...
    Exactly agree.
    "I'm not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The... tactleneck! - Sterling Archer"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important
    than one's fear. The timid presume it is lack of fear that allows the brave to act when the timid do not."

  10. #20
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    At the last m4c shoot we had in October, we all ran through a drill which had us shooting while moving diagonally. First to the left , and then to the right.
    Forward diagonally to the left for a right-hander was torture, but more manageable for the one southpaw in our group.
    We then did forward diagonally to the right. Easier for me, harder for the left-hander.
    In watching my "blooper reel" I deduced that my time would be much better spent moving to cover than trying to squirt a few half-assed shots out in transit. But I learned something, that's what matters. It's funny how you have no idea of how you are really performing until you see yourself on film.
    Edit: This is something I would like to work on when training conditions allow.
    Last edited by MookNW; 02-13-11 at 14:22.

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