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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomalibrando View Post
    We had this discussion in our training team a while back. I hate to use the words always and never when it comes to training somebody. It just removes options. (There are hard and fast rules on somethings) BUT...I see his point for sure in an open air environment. I think it is more applicable in the CQB world. Room entries with short distances and reduced reaction time where you may be on the move when the shot has to happen. Where does most of this training take place? In an open air environment on a square range, so I think students associate it with being used in that environment. If you've ever shot moving targets at distance, you can see that hitting something moving at a walking pace is not that hard. Know the skill set, apply it in the appropiate situation.
    I was on a SWAT team in AZ for almost 7 years of my 11 year LEO career, deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan for USTC/ Blackwater in multiple rolls and missions. I currently am one of the 9 open enrollment instructors at USTC and also teach for the Anti Terrorism Assistance Program. Theres more, but thats the bulk of it.
    Last edited by tomalibrando; 01-29-11 at 13:56.

  2. #22
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    There is a time to shoot and a time to move and a time to haul ass for cover. However there is also a time to be able to shoot while moving.

    Try doing close quarter stuff, room clearing, ship work, bus or aircraft assaults. Either live fire in a shoothouse etc, or with SIMS in force on force scenario's. This will quickly show how shooting with movement is a critical component and a huge benefit especially if you are running point.
    Last edited by Surf; 01-29-11 at 14:00.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    There is a time to shoot and a time to move and a time to haul ass for cover. However there is also a time to be able to shoot while moving.

    Try doing close quarter stuff, room clearing, ship work, bus or aircraft assaults. Either live fire in a shoothouse etc, or with SIMS in force on force scenario's. This will quickly show how shooting with movement is a critical component and a huge benefit especially if you are running point.
    Exactly! there's a time and place for it. It is environmentally dependent. Not knowing how to do it only limits what you CAN do. That said, it is a skill set that requires serious practice.

  4. #24
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    I have 23 years of LE experience with 14 of them in SWAT full time. I also have worked WWPS contracts overseas. I feel that training for moving while shooting is an absolute necessity for law enforcement officers no matter what their assignment. Much of the police academy training in the U.S. is centered on creating distance and finding cover during a gunfight. Officers will likely find themselves backing up, side stepping or moving at angles to obtain cover while engaging a threat. I understand Howe's point of view completely, but the average cop is at the mercy of his training. That training, which is likely reinforced several times per year by his agency, is telling him to get behind something heavy and get rounds on target. What order he does that in or whether he does it simultaneously will be dictated by the scenario that he finds himself in.

    Officers may also find themselves in a position where they must engage a threat while occupied with a wounded victim. In these situations, the officer may have to fire while moving to suppress or eliminate a threat to reach the wounded. A sudden threat might appear while moving to the victim and necessitate engagement due to cover being far away or unavailable (parking lot, open field). They may also be dragging a victim and might have to fire while moving to safe cover. Stopping to body bunker the wounded and return fire would be appropriate in some cases, but shit happens. What I'm trying to say is that every situation is different and each situation will dictate tactics. You can't always choose the ground and circumstances that you fight on. Having practiced a method that allows you to shoot and move simultaneously (or even shoot, step, drag, shoot, step, drag etc..) will add something to your toolbox that may help you down the road. I would encourage officers to practice firing while backing up at targets placed at various heights and angles. Practice firing shots at targets that have much of the torso covered up to simulate firing over a car roof, pickup bed or hood.

    I could "what if" this topic all day and I am not advocating that these types of drills become the focus of your training. I think you should research and develop some drills like these to work into your training cycle periodically. Your primary focus needs to be the fundamentals of marksmanship with your chosen weapons and malfunction drills for those weapons. Drills like these are secondary to your basic skills. I see cops who struggle with marksmanship at 15 yards from the isosceles with their handgun move into a drill where they're trying to backpedal and engage two targets. What they need to be doing is working on the fundamentals at 15 yards with good groups and speed before they attempt the "fun" shit. Don't be that guy. Get the basics down and be brutally honest about your proficiency before you move to higher speed stuff.
    Nothing man-portable is guaranteed to end a fight.

  5. #25
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    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14659

    There's some good discussion on this subject in this thread.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by d90king View Post
    When I have trained with both LAV and Ken Hackathorn they both included shooting on the move in their instruction. I believe there baseline for doing so is that cover or concealment might not be available to you. If you find yourself in that situation being taught how to do so effectively can mean the difference between staying alive or becoming a victim.

    Ken studies countless hours of tapes of shootings and I believe he said the one thing that they all had in common was that guys don't stand still in gunfights and neither will you...

    I believe Howe and Lamb both advocate shooting from cover and engaging while popping out from cover and then moving back to cover...

    Personally I don't see a down side to learning the fundamentals of shooting on the move. Shooting on the move while engaging a moving target can be a humbling experience when you are first learning how to do so. Hell it can be humbling even when you have been taught....

    If you think about realistic engagements in civilian life I can certainly see the need for SOTM to be part of your fundament training. This might not be the case as a Unit member or on a battlefield. As a civilian I honestly cant speculate on what is "right" nor would I ever question Paul Howe on his reasoning...
    Agree with all.

    We always have to break these discussions down into three categories AND understand the person's background/frame of reference.

    The three categories are:

    1. Civy (CCW/HD)
    2. LE (SWAT/Patrol)
    3. Military

    For Civy encounters, it is most likely going to be in your home, car or out in the open (street/parking lot). The gun fight is going to be under 10 meters and you are most likely going to be surprised.

    In the case of a Civy street encounter, I am most likely going to be moving backwards to create distance between myself and the bad guy. If I cannot do that, then I will be moving right/left or forward (depending on obstacles).

    I can see that if I was in the Military and was on the street and attempting to move from point A to B, there would be a lot of moving from cover to cover and shooting from each of the cover positions. Little to no moving and shooting in this frame of reference.


    In every gun fight video I have seen (LE, Civy, etc) EVERYONE is moving. I know for a fact that I am NOT going to stand still and let someone shoot at me and I am pretty sure they aren't either.


    C4

  7. #27
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    I think that what we can take away from this is that the context of the gunfight or the application in which a person is yielding a gun must be taken into account.

    From a military standpoint the viability of shooting on the move may be completely different from the lone gunman in a self defense shoot.

    The same can be said for the lone patrol officer versus the SWAT operator.

    My personal opinion is that the current "duck walk" that alot of instructors teach as being the basis for shooting on the move is absolutely, positively, dumb.

    In the time it takes a shooter to move 10 yards and get five effective rounds on a target i will have unloaded my rifle, reloaded and probably emptied half a magazine already.

    Conversely, if movement IS required, i am going to haul ass from A-B and still make the same amount of EFFECTIVE hits or more in the time it takes the moving and shooting candidate to duckwalk down range.

    Now, having said this, a duckwalk technique, ie get low, lean forward minimize upper body movement is applicable towards a Swat operator or other operator in a door kicking capacity that spends the majority of their career entering doorways with evil men on the other side.

    Truth be told, NONE Of this is effective for a civilian shooter or ccw holder and the best movement drills ive seen have been from the likes of Hackathorn in the form of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wYBOr18vM

    Now THAT is cool. He is advocating NORMAL body movement, at an accelerated rate to get the hell out of dodge while returning effective defensive fire on your attacker. Pretty cool. Seeing drills like that really turns me on to taking a class from instructors of Mr Hackathorns Ilk. They're less interested in selling you fantasy camp and more interested in selling you reality based upon your needs.

    Too many instructors forget the fact that 95% of the students currently going through their classes will never be in a fight with a carbine. They also forget that they're not teaching cops or the military, their background, their training, the training they've done while in service is often times not applicable to the average Joe. There are also WAY too many instructors stuck in 1980, we have a ton of them here in Florida.

    This is why this forum is fantastic. There are alot of companies here that are supported by the site that are under NO illusions or pretenses that they are teaching you how to become a ninja. If a class is billed as a carbine class, you're going to receive basic weapons manipulation instruction rooted in methodology on how to effectively employ the weapon's manual of arms should you need to. No advanced gunfighting tactics, no super seal team 9 instruction on how to blow up a planet with your AR etc.
    Last edited by Magsz; 01-29-11 at 17:25.

  8. #28
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    I agree. Shooting on the move in a dynamic environment is a must. Not saying that all your engagements will be done that way, but it may be necessary.

    This is just like the rest of the TTP's out there. It's something to have in your toolbox.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    There is a time to shoot and a time to move and a time to haul ass for cover. However there is also a time to be able to shoot while moving.

    Try doing close quarter stuff, room clearing, ship work, bus or aircraft assaults. Either live fire in a shoothouse etc, or with SIMS in force on force scenario's. This will quickly show how shooting with movement is a critical component and a huge benefit especially if you are running point.



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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdrak View Post
    Guys,

    I have been thinking on this for some time now after reading Paul Howe's article "Training for the real fight" posted on his site: http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf


    Excerpt from the article:
    "Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots. When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solid hit when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to.
    As for shooting and closing on a target, it only makes the bad guys accuracy better and walking into a muzzle may help you to test your new vest sooner than you wanted to. Diagonal movement works, but again if you have to slow down too much, you are an easy target, and are generally in the open. Speed can act as your security in this case to get you to a point of cover."


    I am 99% in agreement with Howe on this topic, but im looking for others opinions on his view, specifically opposing ones. Keep in mind my point of view on this is coming from a law enforcement mindset. I am not interested in the application of shooting on the move relating to competition shooting. I am strictly referring to it in the context of a life or death, deadly force encounter.

    Looking forward to the discussion....

    Stay safe,
    Nick
    I have had to shoot for self defense at full running speed. Simple answer is people move when being shot at some times they will even run straight through the front door [What would you be willing to run through to avoid being shot ?]

  10. #30
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    IMHO, I believe that shooting on the move is a necessary skill to have in your toolbox. Not that it will be an everytime thing but having been the first guy in the door, I've been glad I had practiced it. I train my agency to be able to engage while moving to cover if necessary. Obviously every situation is unique and the more tools in your box the better off yo will be.
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