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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #51
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    This seems to be common answer for a lot of TTPs. Let the situitation dictate what tactic to use. It doesn't matter if you are applying it to a civilian, LE, or mil scenario. A gunfight is a gunfight. If you need to move and shoot....do it. Practice it, practice variations of it. You can always elect not to use a technique in a gunfight but you can not learn it instantly when you need it. SOTM is a tool like any other that has its pros & cons. Learn it and put it in the tool box, use as necessary. MSG Howe decided not to use it in his experiences and was very sucessful; your gunfight may be different. Don't limit your training to someone else's gunfight. Learn from their experiences...yes: expect your experiences to mirror thiers...no.


    Our experience: 20 yrs USMC (1st Recon & MSG Instructor), 30 yrs SWAT commander, & 8 yrs Army (75th RGR Rgt)

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocktogo View Post
    But just for those occasions where it may be just you and the bad guy, does anyone ever practice shooting one handed while running full sprint for area suppression fire? If there's no one else around, the only thing I than think of that would top running at full speed, would be running at full speed while sending rounds toward my assailant to spoil his aim.

    In a lot of cases like that, there is no firing solution unless you're nearly in contact range. Just get the hell out and find some cover or evacuate the area. Once you've gained cover and the friendlies have either hit the ground or left as well, then you can take more accurate shots from cover.
    I had this same scenerio ALMOST happen to me last year. It's 10pm I'm in a hotel parking lot next to a wooded area letting my dog do his business. 1 or 2 vehicles in a parking lot that is about 100 yards wide by 200 yards long. 2 hommies walking through the middle of the lot and one asks me if I have anything for him. He's only about 20 yards from me when he does. Not really understanding what he is getting at I say no. He asks again and again I say no. His buddy says don't do it it isn't worth it. The guy then asks if I have a gun. I then tell him it would be best for him not to find out and to keep moving. As I'm saying this I'm reaching for my weapon under my coat and looking for cover to move to. Bare parking lot only cover is the woods 25 yards away. I start to casually walk away towards my dog but still facing him at an angle. He's wearing a hoodie and has his hands in the kangaroo pouch of it. If hands start to come out I'm going to have to draw and be prepared to move and fire. As Glocktogo said I'm going to be running like hell to cover and be firing on the move to to spoil his aim until I can gain the woods/cover to put more effective fire on the BG. Thankfully the BG either heeded his buddy's advice or mine and kept his hands in his pouch and kept on his way.

    This is one scenerio where being able to effectly SOTM would be needed.
    Last edited by Watrdawg; 02-01-11 at 09:01.

  3. #53
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    Context is everything.

    IMHO, if you are a civilian that needs to draw and shoot against an attacker at very close range, knowing how to shoot while backing up or moving off the X and/or to cover would seem to be a crucial skill to have. Although having said that who's to say that you won't move into what was initially a "missed shot".

    But I buy into the idea of at least backing away while shooting to create distance and increase the chances that the bad guy, that often is the one that shoots first and point shoots (according to that study done a while ago I think by the FBI) misses.

    I also buy into the idea that moving off the X laterally left or backwards and diagonally leftwards is probably a good idea (if the environment allows it), as the bad guy is likely to be a right handed shooter and will pull his shots low and to your right...maybe.

    If you are a soldier in an aggressive unit maneuvering (and at times hauling ass from cover to cover), shooting and communicating against an enemy that is often under cover himself and using long guns and machine guns, then doing a little duck walk across the street will get you killed! I am guessing that Paul Howe's comments were made with this type of [urban] battlefield in mind, and seen in this context I believe that his comments make absolute sense. I think this also makes sense when going against heavily armed creeps with long guns, such as in the North Hollywood shootout..that was also a strictly "stay alive by haul ass from cover to cover, and then shoot" scenario.

    Just some thoughts from a civilian that's been to a few courses, including two with Paul Howe.
    Formerly known as "Son of Vlad Tepes"

  4. #54
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    Since you've had the good fortune to attend some of his classes, I would bet he can in fact shoot on the move.

    Yes?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Since you've had the good fortune to attend some of his classes, I would bet he can in fact shoot on the move.

    Yes?
    Redhat I took his tactical pistol and his tactical rifle (carbine) course and he really emphasized doing the fundamentals well. There was no shooting on the move during the pistol course, but there was moving, especially around cars, situating yourself behind cars/cover properly, and then engaging targets. During the tactical rifle, you run a "scrambler" where you are running a good 200-300 meters down and then eventually up a hill, to fire from different positions, but again the emphasis there is to move fast, then stop and get accurate hits. He did not demonstrate any shoot on the move skills.

    EDITED: originally I wrote that there was no shooting and moving in the pistol course, but I meant to say that there was no shooting on the move, I corrected this above, with a few more details.
    Last edited by DacoRoman; 02-03-11 at 12:05.
    Formerly known as "Son of Vlad Tepes"

  6. #56
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    We did some moving while shooting at drills on Tuesday night. We had 20 shooters, two relays of ten. We started with the traditional "duck walk", move slow, shoot slow. Then we kept encouraging the shooters to pick up the volume of fire while maintaining the same walking speed. We incorporated reloading on the move as well.

    We ended with a "freestyle" where each shooter was able to move in on their own at their own pace and shoot at their own pace. The whole line loaded together, and then I came down the line and tapped each shooter on the shoulder whereupon they moved in at their pace and engaged the target at their pace. Each shooter got to do this two times.

    We finished with engaging two targets on the move but we were running out of time and didn't get to do much of it.

    Other than the reloading block where shooters started with 2-3 rounds in the gun we did not have a prescribed number of shots to be fired in any drill. Move, and shoot as many rounds as you could in the time you have available. When shooters seemed to be really taking their time with the number of rounds fired we encouraged them to push it and fire more to see what happens.

    Distances were approximately 12-3 yards at various times. Targets were standard IDPA cardboard targets.

    Saw some interesting things. First was that easily half of the shooters could not hold in the -0 when allowed to move slowly and fire at their own pace. However almost no shots were dropped outside the -1. Even when we pushed the pace, and asked shooters to move rapidly and shoot rapidly, there were more -3 but not very many.

    It proved very, very difficult to get some shooters to move rapidly and put a volume of fire downrange. In fact, the more experienced the shooter the harder it was to get them to push it. In order, I would say that those shooters with a lot of static-range experience that typically have a high degree of accuracy were the hardest to get to push it. Second was those that have some amount of traditional "duck walk" training who seemed to default to their prior training. The guys that really pushed it the most were the ones that had the least amount of prior experience to restrain them. (I am ignoring, here, the shooters for whom everything seems to be a challenge)

    It was an interesting experiment, and I think the shooters got something out of it. I don't think a lot of them had been allowed to push the pace like that before and had instead always been restrained by the guy to his left and right on the line, and firing drills like "shoot 3 rounds on the move from here to there".

    I'm going to try to work some more with this, and specifically the multiple-target thing, in the drills session next month.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    We did some moving while shooting at drills on Tuesday night. We had 20 shooters, two relays of ten. We started with the traditional "duck walk", move slow, shoot slow. Then we kept encouraging the shooters to pick up the volume of fire while maintaining the same walking speed. We incorporated reloading on the move as well.

    We ended with a "freestyle" where each shooter was able to move in on their own at their own pace and shoot at their own pace. The whole line loaded together, and then I came down the line and tapped each shooter on the shoulder whereupon they moved in at their pace and engaged the target at their pace. Each shooter got to do this two times.

    We finished with engaging two targets on the move but we were running out of time and didn't get to do much of it.

    Other than the reloading block where shooters started with 2-3 rounds in the gun we did not have a prescribed number of shots to be fired in any drill. Move, and shoot as many rounds as you could in the time you have available. When shooters seemed to be really taking their time with the number of rounds fired we encouraged them to push it and fire more to see what happens.

    Distances were approximately 12-3 yards at various times. Targets were standard IDPA cardboard targets.

    Saw some interesting things. First was that easily half of the shooters could not hold in the -0 when allowed to move slowly and fire at their own pace. However almost no shots were dropped outside the -1. Even when we pushed the pace, and asked shooters to move rapidly and shoot rapidly, there were more -3 but not very many.

    It proved very, very difficult to get some shooters to move rapidly and put a volume of fire downrange. In fact, the more experienced the shooter the harder it was to get them to push it. In order, I would say that those shooters with a lot of static-range experience that typically have a high degree of accuracy were the hardest to get to push it. Second was those that have some amount of traditional "duck walk" training who seemed to default to their prior training. The guys that really pushed it the most were the ones that had the least amount of prior experience to restrain them. (I am ignoring, here, the shooters for whom everything seems to be a challenge)

    It was an interesting experiment, and I think the shooters got something out of it. I don't think a lot of them had been allowed to push the pace like that before and had instead always been restrained by the guy to his left and right on the line, and firing drills like "shoot 3 rounds on the move from here to there".

    I'm going to try to work some more with this, and specifically the multiple-target thing, in the drills session next month.
    That's an issue I have with IDPA. It rewards slow careful movement and execution that isn't good for defense, particularly at the lower skill levels.. I'm working on a stage where there will be a much greater reward for assuming risk in speed. It's based on the Tueller Drill. Go too slow and you're going to be screwed.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watrdawg View Post
    This is one scenerio where being able to effectly SOTM would be needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Watrdawg View Post
    ...I'm going to be running like hell to cover and be firing on the move...
    I must have missed the change of definition of "effective"...

  9. #59
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    I work in a full time unit so most of my time is spent doing close quarters stuff in a team environment. As already mentioned I must be able to put accurate fire while shooting on the move. I am not necessarily talking open field stuff as generally time, distance, space and obstacles (potential concealment / cover) allows for more options to perhaps haul ass to cover and take accurate static fire. However I do feel that it is very critical to be able to shoot accurately at a brisk pace. I am not talking a running pace as that might create more issues in a tight environment, but a quick enough pace to keep the team moving while being able to deliver very accurate fire. I would like to think this would be in the contact to 15 yard range on the outside.

    I do however feel that there may be situations where shooting on the move may be viable from longer distances and I also feel it is a skill to be practiced. Of course learning and honing other skills may be of more benefit, but if time and training allows, shooting on the move is a valuable skill that may even enhance other skills. I have never seen a shooter that shoots very good while moving suck at static shooting.

    Below video is what I would consider the pace, rate of fire and distances that I am talking about practicing at. In real life it will speed up a bit more. But in a room entry environment with hallways, doors, room and clutter, moving too fast might be an issue also. Box drills are similar and even Kyle Lamb teaches a little more complex variation to this simple drill. I actually find that the quicker my pace while still maintaining at least one foot with contact on the ground the better "glide" I get and the more accurate I am.

    Half a pyramid drill. Outer cones 15yards, inner cones 10 yards. on IDPA targets, I like to practice this moderate pace where I am able to keep 85% - 90% hits in the 8" circle and all other hits within an acceptable -1 zone. Or within the bottle size of the FBI Q or SEB type targets.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA0gRFQJJfY

    Quote Originally Posted by Magsz View Post
    Truth be told, NONE Of this is effective for a civilian shooter or ccw holder and the best movement drills ive seen have been from the likes of Hackathorn in the form of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wYBOr18vM

    Now THAT is cool. He is advocating NORMAL body movement, at an accelerated rate to get the hell out of dodge while returning effective defensive fire on your attacker.
    This is another good example of shooting with movement involved. In our dignitary protection courses and most top notch courses, teach this exact movement you see Mr Hackathorn using to the "T". We teach it exactly like that, from the armpit, lift and turn, to draw and fire. Of course we teach other variations for going to your primary side etc, as I am sure Mr. Hackathorn does and of course we stress the real world movements and getting accurate hits. Because chances are high in at least a dignitary situation or an at the mall with the wife etc, situation your backstop may very well be a crowd of people but with training assessment of the entire situation, threat, backstop, beyond and accurate fire, comes almost instinctively. But it must be a practiced skill.

  10. #60
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    A lot of good personal experiences, and insights are festering in this thread. Thanks to you folks that divulged your thoughts on the subject matter.

    I understand the concept that moving-while-shooting/shooting-on-the-move is very dependent on situation, but at what distances do you folks practice? Since I am what some would call a "sheepdog," I realistically see MWS/SOTM at distances from 5-25 yards. Too short/long? Unreasonable?

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