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Thread: Shooting on the move.... Is it worth the training time & effort?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    It is better to determine your failure limits in training than when it's for real. If your gonna miss, it is better when in a controlled training environment when you are attempting to increase your skills or to understand your own personal limitations. Because as we know, most people are more then likely going to perform only as well as their worst day on the range, not their best day. So we need to push ourselves, so that even on our worst day, we are still pretty damn formidable and are better than the guy trying to take us out.
    I agree, and this is the thing I try to do at every drills night. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes not, but hopefully over the long haul we're giving shooters some idea of their level of ability given a certain set of circumstances so that they can get the hits they need in the time they have available.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by p7fl View Post
    Great thread.
    I’ve been finding myself constantly saying, I didn’t know that or never thought of movement from that aspect or use.
    As a square range shooter who uses movement as a challenge or for competitive advantage….I wonder why am I quicker and more accurate moving backwards than forward? Is it a toe then heel balance thing?
    TIA
    The majority of shooters tend to be better when moving backwards vs forward. This is due to the fact that you are on the balls of your feet longer. Or moreso that the balls of your feet have more spring or shock absorbtion than say the heel of the foot. So when moving forward it is heel to toe. Moving backwards is toe to heel. Moving forward tends to be less stable because the heel is stiffer and a heel impact creates more movement transfered through your body than does a toe impact which has more shock absorbtion abilities.

    Besides the normal stuff talked about when shooting on the move other lesser known tips when moving forward is to roll on the outer edges of your feet when moving forward. Also tightening your core or abdomen area often helps greatly. It is often easier the faster you move. You will need to find the pace at which you start to "glide". Generally people think slow movement is better but often times this causes too much inconsistency in your overall movement. Pretty much practice is the only way to get good at it. If you don't practice shooting on the move, don't expect success if it becomes a neccesity.

    Now go ahead and walk across the floor and try it out. I know your gonna do it.

  3. #83
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    Most people see better accuracy with rearward movement because they are starting closer to the target.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I agree, and this is the thing I try to do at every drills night. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes not, but hopefully over the long haul we're giving shooters some idea of their level of ability given a certain set of circumstances so that they can get the hits they need in the time they have available.
    I have a good idea of the challenges that you face on your shooting nights. It is very difficult to get effective SOTM practice when doing a conga line, especially if it is a long one. Invariably the line will get inconsistent and people will often concentrate more on keeping the line intact rather than the actual technique. Also a long line of shooters often does not allow an individual to find and utilize their own pace for shooting on the move.

    In almost every training event that I attend I am never able to move at the pace that allows me the most accuracy. Invariably I would be way too far out front. Often trainers think that my results are not the typical results for shooters. That is only because most shooters are not able to effectively push or find their own limits of what pace or rate of movement they can actually be the most effective at travelling.

    Again I do understand the constraints under which you must train and include everyone, so I applaud your efforts.

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    Some great perspectives here. I'm limited to my own experience so when I talk about shooting on the move, it's from a CQB/MOUT perspective. I can tell you that I've had to do it with incoming and and when it gets down to it, it becomes a race to the finish. Especially when you're indoors. Outside is a different story. Sometimes you want to put rounds on target but need to get out of the way and others, you want to put rounds on target but don't necessarily have a perfect target to shoot at. Dynamic environments are just that. You have to roll with the situation and let your training do it's part. If you have the skill, you might have a little leg up to stand on or a bark in the fight (Errr!) that could either give you the advantage or at least even the odds. Then again, shit happens. We all know that when you play with guns, you can take one, but if you hone the skill, you put the ball in their court to take one.
    So, a baby seal walks into a club...

    كافر FTW!

  6. #86
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    Hey guys... jumping in late... really great discussion going on.

    I am in agreement with the excerpt form the article in the Opening Post.

    Based on the trade off between slowing the pace and increased deviation, I don't think there is much place for the traditional choreographed "shooting & moving" drills that we've all done on the range for years. As has been pointed out, I believe that if there is going to be movement (especially in a defensive shooting situation, which is pretty much all my programs cover), it isn't likely to be smooth and choreographed.

    There is a time when very rapid, realistic movement while shooting makes a lot of tactical sense to me and there is one time we train it in the CFS Program: Moving away from a contact threat which is initiated just outside of Two Arms Reach. When you encounter a potentially lethal contact attack that you are two far away to interrupt (ie- foul the presentation of a knife, get inside a club swing, etc), you are going to be well served by staying outside of the range of the attack, and drawing and firing if you can while moving rapidly. We cover this in our "Shooting in Motion" Drill.

    There is a podcast here explaining the concept:
    http://www.podcastalley.com/podcast_...p?pod_id=52087

    We have seen students have great success in force-on-force scenarios using the concept of Lateral Movement.. shifting offline from the attack during presentation to the shooting position, then planting to shoot. It gives the best of both worlds, movement when can't shoot and a stable platform when you can. At the end of the day, good shooting stops the badguy, not mediocre movement. This alway works against the way the human tracks linear motion. Because we track moving objects predictively (we jump ahead to where we expect it to be), we can cause two changes in the bad guys actions ... one with our movement and another, more significant one, when we stop. We use this concept to trick other humans all the time... fakes in basketball, wide receivers who take a step then change direction and kids evading each other on the playground. This intuitive use of movement makes more sense to me and doesn't slow down our shooting or increase deviation.

    -RJP

  7. #87
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    Thanks for commenting Rob and I hope you don't mind that I referenced you in regards to using your wording for combat accuracy. I have heard the term discussed for many years and even simple NRA courses have been talking about combat accuracy for a long time, but I have heard many different definitions that eventually arrive at the same point. Even though the understanding of the concept may be clear, the way that I heard you define it, was a simple definition for a layman to understand.

    The following is not so much for Rob, but just a generalization that I see or hear and my reasoning for perhaps training to shoot on the move.

    I do agree that people will react in a certain manner such as a startle response. Only your training and skill level will tend to alter that and only to certain degrees depending. People also bring up the point of why even bother teaching a nice stance and a nice grip etc, because when reality hits, most of that goes out the door and to expect a perfect stance or nice two handed combat grip is unrealistic. While this generally holds true, to different extents on a persons training and skill level, I tend to answer it with a sports analogy and teaching kids.

    We teach kids the proper fundamentals in any sport, how to correctly stand, hit a ball, throw a ball and hone these skills under ideal circumstances adhering to exact form and technique. As skill levels increase, comfort levels increase, the ability to adapt ones own unique style increases. As that kid progresses, they might make a diving catch, end up on their back while throwing a guy out at first. They didn't get to that level and that ability and learn their own style to function under less than ideal conditions without having honed the fundamentals first. To think that a kid could get to that level without learning basic skills first is not just improbable, but I would say impossible. Same goes with firearms skills. Therefore learning proper fundamentals and basic skills will allow a shooter to be much more proficient under less than ideal conditions.

    Even shooting on the move in a nice controlled manner may not be exactly what happens in a real situation for some, but having those practiced skills gives us much more options or opportunities to use a skill if and when it is need. Even if we are crouching in startle, drawing and moving backwards or lateral and firing. Our understanding of basic or advanced skills and practice of them definitely increase our chances of success.
    Last edited by Surf; 02-13-11 at 13:14.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdrak View Post
    Guys,

    I have been thinking on this for some time now after reading Paul Howe's article "Training for the real fight" posted on his site: http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf


    Excerpt from the article:
    "Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots. When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solid hit when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to.
    As for shooting and closing on a target, it only makes the bad guys accuracy better and walking into a muzzle may help you to test your new vest sooner than you wanted to. Diagonal movement works, but again if you have to slow down too much, you are an easy target, and are generally in the open. Speed can act as your security in this case to get you to a point of cover."


    I am 99% in agreement with Howe on this topic, but im looking for others opinions on his view, specifically opposing ones. Keep in mind my point of view on this is coming from a law enforcement mindset. I am not interested in the application of shooting on the move relating to competition shooting. I am strictly referring to it in the context of a life or death, deadly force encounter.

    Looking forward to the discussion....

    Stay safe,
    Nick
    If you are doing an entry as a member of a team you need to shoot on the move. If you stop you are stopping all the guys behind you from making forward progress and clearing their zones. At my basic SWAT class about 6 years ago it was hard for me at first to get used to not stopping and shooting the threat. But that stopped everyone behind me from entering the room and left me in the fatal funnel. I learned to keep moving and shooting to allow the team to take the room.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  9. #89
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    if you are doing an entry as a member of a team you need to shoot on the move.
    We hear that a lot as an initial objection from mil/LE team members when we discuss this topic... and sometimes it is a valid concern... the fact is that it takes two guys to enter a room and they go in opposite directions as they enter... so, most of the contact is taking place at times when a lateral shift (as the gun comes up) and planting to shoot do not actually cause the feared pile-up. Under critical thought, most of students who have experienced those situations agree.

    Obviously, there is going to be a difference in tactics and techniques for guys who are moving towards the gunshots and people who will be using firearms defensively. I think shooting on the move because you are moving through a structure and on-balance can be thought of very different from training to shoot on the move defensively when caught off guard.

    -RJP
    Last edited by Rob Pincus; 02-14-11 at 00:05.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
    We hear that a lot as an initial objection from mil/LE team members when we discuss this topic... and sometimes it is a valid concern... the fact is that it takes two guys to enter a room and they go in opposite directions as they enter... so, most of the contact is taking place at times when a lateral shift (as the gun comes up) and planting to shoot do not actually cause the feared pile-up. Under critical thought, most of students who have experienced those situations agree.
    Rob,

    I deal with full time SWAT guys but also train part timers from outer agencies and military SRT guys, so I can't really comment much on civilians as I do not focus there. One thing about our program that is a bit unique is that we run an 11 week school that runs straight through 11 weeks in a row at least for our guys. If we have supervisors it goes an additional week for supervisors. It goes in 3 general phases, basic, intermediate and advanced SWAT. We teach pretty much every topic and that new guy can come straight out of our school and go directly onto task teams who operate with Fema Type 1 capabilities. I will also mention that we very much exceed the NTOA's best practice standards for full time teams so we do expect a lot and plan outline our school according to these 2 organizations requirements.

    Because of this straight through progression of initial training, I get to see these guys progress through personal skill levels in one straight shot. Of course it often takes years to achieve the advanced levels but it is a good way to watch the progression process when you start and teach a guy from scratch until he graduates and then becomes a full time member of the unit. Our cadre films hours of video and I review and debrief guys about their performance on video from FNG's to seasoned guys. This is what I see as being common for both LE and military when it comes to shooting on the move and room entries.

    I will try to use a clear and worse case scenario as an example. Lets use a simple middle fed room 15' x 15', basically a box with the entry door in the middle. So under ideal or non threat environment, this gives us clearly defined positions where we need to post, or where we should be heading to post in the room, areas of responsibility (middle, corner, middle) and fields of fire. Pretty basic room entry stuff. Lets even assume there has been a knock and announce prior to initial entry or breach point and that there has been ongoing announcements as the team has progressed. Now we place a suspect holding a rifle, pointed at the entry of our pretend 15' x15' room. He is directly in line and centered with the door against the far back wall. Lets even say that he fires a round as soon as he sees movement into the room. The target is an obvious threat so there is instant recognition and no lengthy cognitive thought process to determine a shootable threat.

    So when doing a standard room entry and without even getting to the checking of middle, corner, middle, it is quite obvious before breaking the threshold that you have a shootable threat. Just for this example lets assume this thought process has been done and that the person entering understands the threat before breaking the threshold. Below are the 3 phases that I see which are pretty directly related to a persons skill level. I know of your LE / SWAT and overall instructional background so I am quite sure you have viewed the wide range of skill levels in SWAT units from part time to full time teams and various training programs. Again lets assume they process the threat just before or as they breach the threshold.

    New guy with basic skills
    - This guy has been though basic SWAT 101 and basic room entries and understands the need to keep moving. If he doesn't completely go condition black, or "B" line it towards the threat in a direct threat movement, which we frown upon, he understands the need to keep movement and will make a hasty entry and post up in an attempt to get a better platform from which to make an accurate shot. Often they will over penetrate and neglect other threat areas, even after the initial threat ceases to exist.

    Guy with intermediate skill levels - He has perhaps been training longer and been through tactical type of shooting phases of training. He is starting to understand and push his own shooting skills. This guy understands through training especially from getting hammered with SIMS rounds in FoF scenarios the benefit of being able to more quickly get accurate and effective hits on target. Through experience he has determined that forcing his target out of their OODA loop, or forcing them to react to his actions has a much higher rate of success. He understands that this is often accomplished from shooting while still moving and prior to posting up. He will start trying to shoot while he is making entry into the room instead of waiting until he posts up. The most common thing I see when they first start to attempt shooting on the move, is they downshift their speed almost to a crawl to get off accurate shots but attempt to keep moving. In their own minds they are still moving at normal speed but they are not. This can cause issues of course. I have had many many guys think they maintain normal speed but the video shows them differently. Another common thing is they get focused on making good hits while moving that they may often over penetrate while shooting on the move. This same guy may have been doing excellent entries and posting up with good results, but now with shooting on the move he may over penetrate the room. They may often entirely focus on the initial threat and even after posting up will progress the room too early, but he may catch this and attempt to fix it.

    The highly proficient guy and Zen - This guy has been through the basic, intermediate and advanced courses. He is a highly experienced and seasoned guy who trains and practices a lot. He pushes his own skills and is confident and highly proficient and accurate. There are two things that I see from this guy. He will almost always shoot on the move when making that entry, unless if some circumstance does not allow for it. He may either keep normal entry speed or even slightly increase the speed. I mostly find the increase due to an ingrained "glide pace" at which they train. It is almost instinct to get a glide when moving. Many find that glide happens at a quicker pace. So even though his entry may only be a handful of steps, the instinct is to increase to "glide" or "shooting" speeds at which they find themselves more accurate. He will still be moving into his proper placement while shooting but often gets several well placed hits before hitting the spot where he would normally have posted up. He will quickly understand the condition of his target and its threat level. When he feels the immediate threat is not there he will rapidly clear other areas of responsibility almost instinctively before progressing the room. These guys are definitely not the norm and it is a true pleasure to watch them work. But this is what we strive for as an instructor and ideally the level I would hope to see all of the guys that I deal with progress to.

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