The disgusting state of 1911 mfg's in 2007

[one]

I'm going to start off this post by saying that I'm really not the type of person that just goes off on internet tangets, ranting about every little thing but when it comes to the current crop of 1911's on the market I just have to stop and look at the research I've done and ask "What the hell?"

Going back in time a ways to when I turned 21 I was fortunate enough to have a job where I made enough money to buy and trade a lot of handguns. I loved 1911's and had owned them and had them in my family for my whole life. I went through a dozen different models of Colt .45 autos and never, not even once, did I have reliability issues with any of them. I just got them sale or trade, pulled them out of the box and started blasting away with them until I found something different I felt like trading for. No extractor this, or ejector that, or anything.

By the mid nineties I'd gotten primarily into Sig's, Glocks, Berettas, etc. and wound up only keeping one nice Springfield Armory full size pistol that I'd had customized. So here we are in 2007 and I'm working plain clothes LE and decided I'd really like to get back to a 1911 in .45 acp. But the problem now is finding something that I have confidence in paying good money for that will function reliably and get me through a worst case social encounter should things ever come to that.

The Sig 1911 gets numerous complaints even on the boards focusing on Sig, The Kimbers I feel are seriously hit and miss. I realize they're LAPD SWAT issue and USMC limited issue but I have a close friend who's a dept. instructor on a local PD in the county I work in, we shoot together multiple times a week and he went through four different extractors in his full size pistol. Finally he had to send the entire thing in and over twelve weeks later got back the gun with a new internal extractor slide on it. (It does function well now.)

So I start looking around and doing research on light weight 1911's, preferably of Commander sized length. I come across a Smith and Wesson 1911PD in a shop in Tulsa yesterday. A lot of nice features, a few simple things I'd change out like guide rod and hex head grip screws but overall a nice pistol in appearance with current features I like such as high sweep beavertail, flat mspg. housing, extended thumb safety, etc. Then I roll it over and there's a freaking external extractor.

So, given my misgivings about external extractor 1911's I noted the price (Which I thought was more or less reasonable enough.) and came home and spent most of last night researching the pistol. Sure enough as usual a lot of decent reviews but also a lot of complaints about...Their extractors...All of which contained the usual writings about the hassle of sending the gun in and a few with the customary "It had to be sent in several times". Totally unacceptable to me.

I can't understand why these companies can't seem to get it right. So, I guess I'm taking some cold cash with me to the next big gunshow in about a month and a half and seeing what I can come up with in a Series 70 or 80 Colt Light weight commander. Or possibly a new XSE Commander.

As a side note I've also thrown myself into researching Colt frame cracking and the history surrounding that phenomenon...As far as I can tell the frame might possibly develop an 1/8th inch or so crack but at least it'll likely fire and function.

Am I a solo act in feeling this way?

[Trim2L]

Is there really more problems or is their just reported problems?

I've always believed that the number of problems you hear about probably pales in comparison the actual number or problems.

[lindertw]

I purchased a newer Colt Commander in Feb of this year. I experienced multiple FTF/FTE during my initial range visits when using Wilson Combat 7-round magazines (note: ran fine with factory Colt 7-round magazines).

Box stock accuracy was acceptable:


and tightened up considerably with the addition of a fitted Ed Brown bushing:

I'm still amazed at how well the factory barrel shoots in this pistol.

I sent the pistol off to for a little more work, and now she runs like a champ (Ed Brown hardcore slide stop and Tripp follower/spring kits in the Wilson mags solved the feed/eject issues).





good luck in your hunt!

[one]

That's a beautiful piece. Wilson's magazines are something else I won't ever use again. After reading years of rave reviews on them I picked up several in the early 2000's. Three of the four consistently failed to lock the slide back on the last round and when I received replacement parts for them one of the three never would function correctly.

On each of them the polymer follower wore down to where they wouldn't engage any more. (Each of the initial three failing ones that is.)

Factory 7 round magazines have never given me problems in a lifetime of shooting these pistols since I was a kid.

And I realize that current Colt's have some issues as well as other brands. A Detective on my dept. approached me about "fixing" his broken Colt Defender carry gun.

The magazine button had broken completely in two in the frame during a qualification run. That was a new one to me. I installed an old 80's vintage piece to replace it that I had laying around a parts box and it's ran fine since.

[rhino]

I am also disappointed with the overall QA/QC of 1911-pattern pistols today, but I also believe that overall (aside from the advent of some MIM parts) the situation is a lot better than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Nowadays you stand a good chance of getting a gun that runs out of the box from most of the better known manufacturers. The Colt's I saw in the mid 1990s were almost always crap until they very briefly got smart and release the XS (not XSE) series, but then they discontinued the best guns they ever made.

There are also a lot more choices today. The competition really kicked-up a notch when Kimber hit the market and was selling essentially hand-built guns for a steal. So we have more variety and I think that most of the companies are producing better guns more consistently now.

[R Moran]

Awhile back I took a 1911 Operators course by Hilton Yam and Ken Hackathorn.

Hiltons take, the 1911 was originally designed and manufactured when labor was cheap and technology was expensive, today the opposite is true.
The 1911, essentially needs to be handfit, and that costs money.

Matt, who recently returned from LAVs 1911 class, if I understand correctly, says the situation today, almost forces it, also. With the numbe of manufactures of guns, mags, and every part, all to various specs, leads to a situation where the gun has to be handfit, to get the most out of it.

I don't think its a "1911" problem, as much as its a manufacture problem.

There is alot of good 1911 info at his sight 10-8performance.

FWIW, he doesn't care for the Firing pin safety in the S&W's. The problem with most external extractors is, they sit to high in the slide, he was working on a fix, but I'm not sure where he is on it.

Bob

[Hersh]

. With the numbe of manufactures of guns, mags, and every part, all to various specs, leads to a situation where the gun has to be handfit, to get the most out of it.

I don't think its a "1911" problem, as much as its a manufacture problem.

Good points. I believe a lot of manufacturers believe they know more than JMB did and in reality they probably don't.

I participate at M1911.ORG and there are sub-forums for several current 1911 manufacturers. What surprises me is this idea of "break-in." Several manufacturers have advised members to shoot X number of break-in rounds through their guns whcih they say will shake out all the bugs from the gun.

Call me crazy, but I thought they were supposed to run right out of the box.. I did have one FTE with my 07 produced 1991A1 due to an out of spec extractor claw. I suppose anyone can let a bad part get past QC.

[one]

I don't think its a "1911" problem, as much as its a manufacture problem.

That quote is exactly my point.

And I'm sure that Hilton is correct in what he's saying about the cost of labor today vs the early 1900's. And believing that to be part of the case I think that if modern manufacturers aren't willing to pay the labor cost to have the pistol built correctly then they shouldn't be playing in the market place game at all.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good points. I believe a lot of manufacturers believe they know more than JMB did and in reality they probably don't.

I participate at M1911.ORG and there are sub-forums for several current 1911 manufacturers. What surprises me is this idea of "break-in." Several manufacturers have advised members to shoot X number of break-in rounds through their guns whcih they say will shake out all the bugs from the gun.

Call me crazy, but I thought they were supposed to run right out of the box.. I did have one FTE with my 07 produced 1991A1 due to an out of spec extractor claw. I suppose anyone can let a bad part get past QC.

Not a 1911 guy, but it's been my experience that pretty much everything except a Glock benefits from a break-in period.

[Bushytale]

The craftsmen that put together Colt and S&W handguns in the '50s and '60s and even earlier are all retired now. Both companies went downhill in the '70s and now most handgun mfgs. just look for ways to make them less expensive to build. Add the fear of liability and we have the 1911 of today. Cheaper parts and extra safeties do not make a good 1911. The only plus is CNC has tightened up some of the tolerances and we get better sights and ergo features. What ever you decide to get, have an experienced 1911 mechanic check it over and get it set up correctly for you.

Billy