Do we need more than 12" Penetration today?

[Sox]

In another forum a post from a gentlemen desiring a .45 round that penetrates 14-16" stirred me. I had thought about this for some time as the 12" penetration depth recommended by the FBI dates back to the mid 80's. We are, as a demographic, larger on average with higher BMI's (body mass indices) than our lankier counterparts nearly 30 years ago.

I would be interested in knowing if any medical examiners/pathologist have noticed any change in the wounding, lethality etc. in the more obese victim?

I look at some big dudes sometimes with leather coats and hoodies and think... Damn, he is a thick ass dude! I would hate to tangle with that.

Your insight is appreciated.
Dave

[spdldr]

I have the same observations. Some of those people are big! In my opinion, more than 12" penetration a good idea. Also keep in mind that the bullet has to have some remaining energy at deep penetration in order to do any damage.

[spdldr]

This may be a re-run, but check this.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

It's a classic event of placement and penetration vs expansion with less penetration.

[200RNL]

In my opinion, more than 12" penetration a good idea. Also keep in mind that the bullet has to have some remaining energy at deep penetration in order to do any damage.

After years of studying this, I've come to the same conclusion.

I'm off the high cost , magic bullet bandwagon. I've settled on the .38 Special Model 60 loaded with 158gr SWC, which is what I started with many years ago. If one of the big ammo companies came out with a heavier lead SWC, I might try it out but the 158gr is probably enough for any oversize attacker.

[Jake'sDad]

After years of studying this, I've come to the same conclusion.

I'm off the high cost , magic bullet bandwagon. I've settled on the .38 Special Model 60 loaded with 158gr SWC, which is what I started with many years ago. If one of the big ammo companies came out with a heavier lead SWC, I might try it out but the 158gr is probably enough for any oversize attacker.

The funny thing is, when we were carrying 158's, the people we shot, largely fell down pretty good. Even in the notorious 158 grain RNL days.

I like the really big holes some of the newest loads make, but there's certainly something to be said for the old penetrators.

[DocGKR]

How about we remember that 12" is the MINIMUM and recall that many of the good loads go deeper into the ideal penetration range of 12-18"...

[tpd223]

Once years ago during a high risk warrant brief I noted that the bad guy we were after was reported to be 6'6" and 350-375lbs.

Since we issued Winchester 55gr SP for our ARs back then, and knowing what I knew about that load, I quietly swapped mags so that I was loaded with M193 ball (I know better now, but back then it seemed like a good idea to have some ball ammo around for shooting through cover).
I had this mental picture of shooting said bad guy and not being able to put him down due to being issued ammo that only penetrated like 6" in gelatin.


A couple of years ago while we were in NOLA my wife and I were in a confrontation where I almost had to shoot a guy who was about 6'3" and pushing 375. She retired her Kel Tec .32 when we got back home and started carrying a 9mm loaded with +p Gold Dots.


Years ago I used to really worry about overpenetration if I was involved in a shooting on the job. Now, not so much.

Our issued 124gr +P Gold Dot seems to run about 15" penetration on average, in real life it will most often exit on a cross torso shot, pop out the far side and either get caught up in the clothing or fall to the ground a few yards downrange.
Even though these bullets exit, I feel the penetration is just about perfect.

[TehLlama]

Having met huge Samoans who are convinced that 70 degree weather necessitates thick jackets, I'll say it's pretty reasonable.

As you noted, certain clothing layers can do a lot to alter the terminal effects, so considering that 12" penetration on bare gel is a benchmark, with the reduced performance since that's the most ideal condition, 12" would be absolutely a minimum, as DocGKR states.

"Know your target and what lies beyond" is a better option than an inferiour loading.

[Sox]

Doc,

My assertion is the minimum should be increased. This is based on the fact the FBI guidelines were established well over 20-30 years ago!

Heck I'll go a step further. They (the FBI) should review this again, or are there any plans to?

Dave

[481]

The 12" minimum established by the FBI is an excellent requirement for minimum penetration.

Given that it may be necessary to shoot an assailant intent on killing you; it is highly probable that he may very well have his arms up in front of him while committing that act (as with the use of a firearm), meaning that your ammunition will not only have to defeat what he is wearing before providing adequate penetration to reach his vital organs, but also a hand, wrist, forearm or upper arm (and it may not be just one of those body parts either) prior to that if your defensive fire is directed COM.

I, for one, prefer "heavy for caliber" JHP ammunition (regardless of caliber chosen) that routinely provides between 14 and 18 inches of penetration.