Do we need more than 12" Penetration today?

[DocGKR]

The original guideline back in the late 1980's was 10-12"; this was revised upwards to an absolute 12" minimum in the early 1990's. It may well be that deeper penetration is required by the increasing obesity in American Society, however, the 12-18" standard still works for larger individuals--just pick loads exhibiting terminal performance at the deeper end of the spectrum.

[kal]

Isn't 12in of gel about 6in of real tissue?

[Thomas M-4]

Isn't 12in of gel about 6in of real tissue?

I believe you are thinking of water.

[Weaver]

Isn't 12in of gel about 6in of real tissue?

No. Properly calibrated gel exhibits a 1:1 relationship with live tissue.

[kmrtnsn]

I'm fine with 12" of penetration as long as what ever the round is has penetrated a windshield and a couple of layers of denim or a heavy nylon jacket first.

[Armati]

Just from my own personal observations:

An entrance and exit wound it is a good (or bad depending on your POV) thing. Internal injuries are good but I just like the idea of the BG losing RBC's out of two holes.

Shooting people may be no different than stabbing them. Be mentally prepared poke multiple holes in them. I know a PD Use of Force Instructor who taught officers to continue to shoot until the target was no longer a threat. I have seen at least two guys run a 5 round 'rhythm drill' on a BG to bring him down. Shooting people is not like shooting steel. Don't be surprised if the target requires follow up shots.

[.45fmjoe]

Just from my own personal observations:

An entrance and exit wound it is a good (or bad depending on your POV) thing. Internal injuries are good but I just like the idea of the BG losing RBC's out of two holes.

Shooting people may be no different than stabbing them. Be mentally prepared poke multiple holes in them. I know a PD Use of Force Instructor who taught officers to continue to shoot until the target was no longer a threat. I have seen at least two guys run a 5 round 'rhythm drill' on a BG to bring him down. Shooting people is not like shooting steel. Don't be surprised if the target requires follow up shots.

All our instructors told us to shoot until the threat is neutralized.

[PRGGodfather]

EXPECT that follow-up shots will be needed. More bullets is good. Spare magazine is good. Prepare for pistol whipping and ground fighting is good.

It's a pistol. Keep shooting until the bad guy stops, and get ready to fight if he doesn't realize he is dead.

Just from my own personal observations:

An entrance and exit wound it is a good (or bad depending on your POV) thing. Internal injuries are good but I just like the idea of the BG losing RBC's out of two holes.

Shooting people may be no different than stabbing them. Be mentally prepared poke multiple holes in them. I know a PD Use of Force Instructor who taught officers to continue to shoot until the target was no longer a threat. I have seen at least two guys run a 5 round 'rhythm drill' on a BG to bring him down. Shooting people is not like shooting steel. Don't be surprised if the target requires follow up shots.

[BufordTJustice]

The original guideline back in the late 1980's was 10-12"; this was revised upwards to an absolute 12" minimum in the early 1990's. It may well be that deeper penetration is required by the increasing obesity in American Society, however, the 12-18" standard still works for larger individuals--just pick loads exhibiting terminal performance at the deeper end of the spectrum.

Agreed. I arrested a guy back in January for multiple felonies (he held his wife hostage with a loaded 12g Mossy 500...pointed it at her a couple times....yadda yadda yadda...he is STILL in jail on no-bond status....haha). This guy was 6'3", and 300lbs after taking a big shit, while holding a pack of balloons. Now, I'm not small (225, I'm young, and I lift heavy on a reg basis), and it took some doing for me to gain compliance so I could put him in the back of my patrol car.

That turned out to be a bad idea.

He, on his first attempt, kicked out my right rear window. I donated the better part of a can of pepper spray since he complained of some sinus congestion .....and that's all she wrote.

I said all that to say that I'm pleased my agency issues 200gr +P .45 Gold Dots since this guy's upper torso was easily 16-18 thick (front to rear) and his gut might have doubled that figure. Having to possibly shoot through one of his bear-sized-arms to reach vitals would also require some serious penetration.

Also remember folks, bal-gel requirements do NOT include the striking of bone...or the reduced penetration/deviations from course that bone would cause.

The best backstop for your rounds is the badguy.

[ZRH]

I've only read up specific topics in terminal ballistics so I'm curious: At what distance are rounds fired into the gel to determine penetration in I guess the "standard" test?